Undo should be ctrl+z (ctrl shoud control apps inside functions).
Cmd should command OS and its GUI (operations of OS, open close drag stick Windows, open and close menus and etc).
Using a Mac keyboard is not rare, it is common. People who prefer Ctrl over Alt for keyboard shortcuts are encouraged to switch to Windows/Linux mode in Keymap. Haiku is not holding over bad Mac settings, the keyboard shortcuts were designed for a specific purpose even if you don’t understand it. AltGr has a special place in European hearts so we can’t change its function even if it makes no logical or historical sense.
This can all be fixed by adding a type parameter to keymap settings. Type 0 is PC, type 1, 2, 3 are TBD but at least Mac, and ISO. Legacy keymaps are assumed type 0 for PC. If your keymap is PC we show Ctrl, Win (or Super or Meta or Hyper or a diamond, or something) and Alt in the menu. If your keymap is Mac you get Ctrl, Opt, and Cmd in menus and your Command and Option keys are swapped. If you select type ISO you get PC menu items and your right Alt and Right Windows are swapped. People who want Ctrl instead of Alt or Command can get that by switching to Windows/Linux mode which swaps Ctrl and Alt, and then we can fix everything else up in Shortcuts someday.
This reminds me of an episode from the show “Portlandia”. Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
You might want to turn down a bit for that jingoistic chauvinism of yours.
I apologize, I meant no disrespect towards Europeans. It is only that the AltGr key is largely used by European keyboards and not American keyboards. To my understanding users of keyboards with an AltGr key expect the key to input additional text characters or accent marks.
That function for historical BeOS and Mac reasons stores that information in the option map which is bound to the Windows key by default. In the keymaps of at least some European language keyboards, we swap right Alt (AltGr) and right windows key so that the AltGr key on your keyboard has the expected function.
For me personally, it doesn’t make much sense but I’ll never use any of those keymaps anyway so it doesn’t affect me. What I’m proposing is that we continue doing what we are currently doing, but in a more direct way that we could also use for other things (mostly keyboard shortcuts).
This is wrong for Windows keyboards. For Windows keyboards:
Windows → Haiku
Ctrl → Ctrl
Alt → Command
Windows → Option
It is not wrong. It is how those keyboards are made. And I personally like more when next to Spacebar there Opt key (because I use 3 level keyboard’s keymap).
All swapping should be made only by user itself.
For Haiku default state should be:
Alt/AltGr/Opt it is OPTION
Win/Cmd/Meta/Super/OS/Logo it is COMMAND
Ctrl it is CONTROL
When a user connects a Mac keyboard:
When a user connects a PC keyboard:
Keyboard settings app can have some checkbox “swap Command and Option keys” or some “PC keyboard mode” and “Mac keyboard mode” (for last to work correctly Keyboard settings app must be aware of real keyboard type to revert captions on checkboxes or something).
1 Like
This is even more confusing, and Windows-like, there is already a Windows mode. I don’t see how this makes sense.
What actually is confusing for You?
…
In this whole matter (as I understand it) there are the following objective factors:
- keyboards are manufactured according to certain unified standards.
- PC and Mac keyboards (basically) differ in the physical position of the Alt(Opt) and Win(OS/Cmd) keys.
- when the keyboard is connected to the computer, the computer “knows” where the physical key is on that keyboard.
- The operating system (each in its own way) interprets each keystroke and what should be done with it.
- The operating system contains templates (keymaps, hotkeys and so on) for how the user interacts with programs through the physical keyboard.
- Each operating system usually allows some modification of point 5.
All these different things should not be confused with each other.
Using a Mac keyboard is not rare, it is common.
I think there are (way) more PC keyboard users than Apple keyboard users…
1 Like
Totally agree, the majority of keyboards will be PC - MAC are in a minority, & always will be, because of their (MACs) purchase cost.
When I think of the keyboards on my previous notebooks, as well as my two current ones, a mess!
They are (were) each GERMAN keyboards without number pad.
When I switch between the laptops, I have to be very careful not to press the wrong keys!
A relaxed fluid ‘work’ is almost impossible with it!
Anyway, I could observe that the keyboard layouts change from model to model and some keys go to the most impossible positions - where you don’t expect them.
Similarly (so additionally) it behaves with the lettering!
I think we all agree that the PC user base is much bigger than the Apple’s. But how many of the potential Haiku users are already familiar with the Apple keyboard layout, and of those who are not, how easy is it for them to adapt?
macOS desktop market share is much higher than I expected it to be. 14-17% is generally mentioned, higher than their sales market share. This indicates that Apple users hold on to their hardware much longer than PC users.
PC dominates the business market, while Apple is much stronger in the home market. I would guess that potential Haiku users are dominated by home users, and not business users. So the number that are familiar with Apple layout keyboards will be higher than the 14-17% desktop market share indicates.
Interesting comment, you say most home users own a MAC, yet I don’t know of anyone who actually owns one! 
Most home computer users either have a PC laptop or a Chromebook these days, if they even have a computer.
The majority of people that I know own & use a (smart) phone for all their needs. 
1 Like
No, I did not. I said they are stronger in the home market. That means that Apple’s market share is bigger in the home market than the business market. If their overall desktop market is 14-17%, that means their business market is smaller than that number and their home market is bigger. Never did I say that the market share is bigger than PCs.
I also explicitly mentioned that I only looked at the desktop market, since that is what Haiku targets.
You need to learn how to read properly.
As a user of keyboards with Alt-Gr … That swapping is just wrong, IMO, and only necessary because the Option “key-role” is used to do what a separate "Alt-Gr " key-role (that should exist but doesn’t), should do.
Not having a separate key-role for Alt-Gr just messes things up, because you can’t remap things freely, if you’re forced to use the “Option” key-role (== Win key, by default). There’s only one AltGr (left-alt)… but two Win/Super/Whatever keys.
Never owned a Mac in my 40 years working with computers. At work nobody uses Apple hardware. It’s Windows laptops 100%. Of course, ymmv, but in most companies and households, there’s not a Mac to be seen.
1 Like
No one owns a Mac is not a valid argument, there are tons of things that Macs do better than PCs (or vice versa). By that logic, no one uses Haiku, yet we are.
1 Like
AltGr is a Windows thing, Option is a Mac thing, we are doing our best to try and accommodate the expectations of Windows users even though the baseline assumption is that you enter additional characters the Mac way with Option i.e. Windows key on both sides of the keyboard and keyboard shortcuts with the Alt key on both sides of your keyboard.
PC keyboards are the plurality but Mac keyboards are a sizable minority, in the US at least. We should and do cater first and foremost to PC keyboard users, but we should not ignore the presence of Mac keyboard users.