[Notice] Georestriction of the UK

[kallisti5]

First. This is not a political post.

We want to keep things on topic on how we as an organization are going to deal with a new legal and financial risk to Haiku, Inc.

Debate on government policy should be directed at your local representatives and not in this thread (or in this forum). We will be hiding / removing any venting or frustration replies. We’re all frustrated, and it’s not helpful.

I’m starting with the tldr; Haiku, Inc. risks getting sued if we continue to offer this forum to users in the UK after March 16, 2025 due to the UK’s Online Safety Act.

While Haiku, Inc. is a US not-for-profit company, with services hosted outside the UK, we risk a lawsuit in the UK if we continue to offer community services to users of this country.

Communities all over the internet are facing a similar problem. ( Lobste.rs for example).

I’m going to quote Lobste.rs’s analysis which sums it up well.

Sites are required to produce lengthy documentation about their features, practices, and risks - both up-front and as they moderate. Attempting to understand which sections apply and how to comply would be a huge project. Doing so correctly would require legal advice we can’t afford. The cost in time and money to implement the bureaucratic processes it demands also outstrip a hobbyist forum.

The risks of not complying properly with these laws are “civil penalties up to $22 million USD, and potential criminal penalties”. While the community moderates this forum well, and we have general guidelines on what is and isn’t acceptable, the law seems to require extensive ongoing documentation which we don’t have the resources to manage indefinitely.

We’re going to be Geoblocking users from the UK before March 16th, 2025 to community engagement platforms until we find a better solution. This is not a permanent block of UK users if better solutions are found to reasonably manage the requirements of the UK’s OSA.

Package repositories will not be impacted, nor will the website. Gerrit and Haiku Depot may be impacted in the near future as we get a grasp of scope.

Update: @win8linux found some awesome additional resources supporting our (and Lobste.rs’s) reading of the OSA. Check them out: [Notice] Georestriction of the UK - #41 by win8linux

[humdinger]

I have nothing useful to say, I suppose, appart from “this sucks! ”
And isn’t it great that using a VPN does actually work under Haiku?

[nephele]

@humdinger

And isn’t it great that using a VPN does actually work under Haiku?

Encouraging people to evade the block is not a good idea. You are then as an organisation basically admitting that you plan to continue providing services, but want some shallow plausible deniability.

[kallisti5]

@nephele

Encouraging people to evade the block is not a good idea. You are then as an organisation basically admitting that you plan to continue providing services, but want some shallow plausible deniability.

That is correct.

[humdinger]

Will only members of the Haiku project get moderated or everyone?

[nephele]

Ich wollte dir damit nicht den Mund verbieten oder sowas, nur dass es nicht so schön ist wenn man der Inc unterstellen kann dass es wissentlich umgangen wird, bzw dazu aufgerufen wird.
Ich hatte jetzt nicht geplant desbezüglich zu moderieren.

[humdinger]

I misinterpreted then… No harm done.
I think all forum users should be free to talk about how a VPN can be used to avoid geoblocking. We just can’t say on the geo-blocking page, “Oi, mate, use a VPN to access the forums.” That’d make it offcial, while talking in forum comments should be free speech™.

[kallisti5]

@humdinger

Will only members of the Haiku project get moderated or everyone?

Everyone from UK ip addresses, regardless of position will be blocked from accessing “user-to-user services”. The forums are a clear member of that definition.

Gerrt and Trac are kinda in a gray area… they might get roped in.

When UK users are blocked, they should see a page on why (that’s the goal)

Haiku, Inc. is open to any and all ideas on how we can prevent performing this block. We just haven’t found any that don’t involve a team of Lawyers that are knowledgeable in the OSA and hiring someone full-time to write up moderation reports.

[kallisti5]

@humdinger

I think all forum users should be free to talk about how a VPN can be used to avoid geoblocking. We just can’t say on the geo-blocking page, “Oi, mate, use a VPN to access the forums.” That’d make it offcial, while talking in forum comments should be free speech

Correct. We won’t moderate people talking about ways to bypass the blocks. That’s between you and the UK. As a member of Haiku, Inc. it’s not a great topic I can discuss.

The forums won’t be available in the UK on or before March 16th anyway… so how would they know without breaking the law?

[cian]

The inexactitude of geo-blocking is going to be fun here - I’m not in the UK, but for some reason, my work IP frequently is. And my home IP has occasionally shown up as any of the other countries my ISP trades in - Austria was most recent.

[humdinger]

@kallisti5

The forums won’t be available in the UK on or before March 16th anyway… so how would they know without breaking the law?

Yeah, new users from Old Blighty will have it tough… until they find the IRC channel. The main website will still available to them?

[kallisti5]

@humdinger

Yeah, new users from Old Blighty will have it tough… until they find the IRC channel. The main website will still available to them?

Yeah, the website and other non “user-to-user” services will be unaffected. We’re working to block as few things as possible to UK users.

[cocobean]

@kallisti5

Debate on government policy

As was done by large entities, they implemented a “no fault” clause for any misleading, hateful, and/or false information posted on their media services. Freedom of speech - unless complaints are filed for removal of users and content.

So, moderators can decide if certain entities can’t join/read/post/modify/submit content.

We see this with digital media restrictions, copyrights, travel, and intellectual property.

Moderation and governance comes at a great financial cost and risk.

[kallisti5]

@cocobean

Moderation and governance comes at a great financial cost and risk.

Agree. To be clear, we really hate all of this. It’s why we’re being open about it and want community feedback in-case there are alternatives we haven’t figured out yet.

We don’t care about UK politics, but as soon as donated Haiku, Inc. funds are potentially at risk we can no longer ignore it. Show us the clear and reasonable loopholes in the law (or supporting case law) that allows us to not block UK users, and we’ll unblock them.

[memsom]

I’m sorry but this is pathetic. Im in the UK so you are basically blocking me because you are too lazy to deal with a new restriction. Im a 50 year old, I’m not an impressionable kit, but you’d rather be blanket block an entire country rather than find a better solution? This is a hysterical knee jerk reaction. So, I’ll probably illegally connect with a VPN and you will still be liable. Whatever man, whatever.

[kallisti5]

@memsom

Im in the UK so you are basically blocking me because you are too lazy to deal with a new restriction.

We’re willing to put the work in, but we’re not willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars of funds donated by users all of the world on on lawyers, and hire someone full time to navigate the reporting requirements of the OSA laws in only the UK.

That’s a pretty common feeling from everyone i’ve spoken to. @memsom if you’re willing to step up as someone who manages the reporting requirements for the UK we’re open. It would be a full time, daily workload coordinating with a self-provided legal team or service.

As for the VPN, you’re free to do whatever you wish. We can’t recommend it however.

[memsom]

Sorry. I have a full time job already. I don’t realistically have the time. I read this forum and participate where possible. This pretty much kills and ends my involvement in Haiku going forward. I urge all other UK residents to also do the same.

[kallisti5]

@memsom

This pretty much kills my involvement in Haiku going forward. I urge all other UK residents to also do the same.

I’m sorry to hear. We are absolutely doing everything we can to avoid this, “the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze” based on what is known today.

I’ve mentioned it before, however if anyone can find loopholes, or a realistic legally viable way to manage these UK OSA reporting requirements without spending tens of thousands of dollars, please reach out to Haiku, Inc.

[Lounes]

Not a solution but UK members can still follow the project on mastodon, right? And creating a Discord server is also on the table