Labeling each thread separately would help, and would maybe be enough. Though several pro-LLM people have posted objections to being forced to self-label their posts; it got a bit heated.
A category is notionally a “space” for LLM-associated content in a way that adding text to the thread title is more “labeling” so it might avoid some of those negative feelings.
Yeah; that’s a good point. Ugh.
Honestly, I don’t think there’s a perfect solution, as there rarely is to culture war issues.
If the pro-LLM side went along with labeling threads in the title, and the anti-LLM side stayed out of those threads, it’d probably work well enough. I just don’t think that threads will get labelled often enough to avoid the fights breaking out, and having an obvious category in the pull-down menu would help with that.
Categories can be set to be muted by default (meaning they don’t appear in Latest, unless users turn them on individually) and also to not show up in search results. Right now, the “International” category is set to be muted by default, but no categories are excluded from search results (that I know of.)
We could potentially have a category like this, but ban “vibecoded” software entirely, and allow only software made with LLM assistance to be in this “quarantined” category.
Well, if “we” is “you and me” you’re probably right about that.
But there’s at least one developer here who’s at least LLM-curious and seems to support having LLM-associated software in the app ecosystem if not in the OS. (@jackburton please correct me if I’m mis-representing your opinion.) So even if “we” were limited to the Haiku developers, of which I am not one, there’s not a consensus that LLM content should be banned outright.
And I think there probably is a consensus among the developers that the fighting over the issue needs to be stopped?
I don’t think a consensus will ever be reached,but I’m quite optimistic that if a poll is made with only people who have made at least one commit into the Haiku source,there’s a good chance to win that thing.
That lets me out; I still haven’t gotten my review login fixed so my changes to the Workspaces app still haven’t been submitted.
(I probably shouldn’t have made myself a standalone version of it; it’s nice to have, but it takes all the urgency out of actually getting that login fixed.)
sounds a little antidemocratic, you know? as a 2 decades haiku user who cant code, who contrbuted with icons, translations and money, I feel very sad about this thought
I think it makes sense to let only developers decide about development questions.
People who don’t know how to write a program fall for marketing slop too easily.
But this threa disnt about development; it’s about this forum, it’s fair to let the developers decide on development matters, but users shouldn’t be ecxluded from participating in decisions that affect the community
With whom are you proposing this compromise? I don’t quite understand why you go to a compromise position immidiently instead of laying down arguments for your prefered way.
I personally agree with Nipos and would just ban the advertising of LLM generated content on this forum, there are enough other user groups, repos, etc. where people are free to advertise this, and where users can use it. At the end of the day, if someone downloads Haiku they can use it for whatever they want, including running slop. But I think we don’t have to help people spreading such software on our infrastructure….
As a moderator I very much would like to not have a flamewar in each posted topic about some AI app!
Would be nice to go off-bx-default to on-by-default for international. The discoverability is pretty bad.
It would be nice, in general, if more users take up the hat of modereation, it is frankly quite annoying if the moderation team is mostly developers and then some agitators try to make this out as some users vs developers fight when they harass other people on the forum…
I really hate this “weaponizing” of democratic tools. We should not have a vote only when we think we can beat the oposition into silence. I would much prefer if people who have a stake in this debate can simply state their arguments for consideration here, and then we can collectively debate and afterwards decide. Not by cutting it short and picking some arbitrary metric like commits to the haiku repo.
(This is also similar to these “my post has more likes than yours, so you are wrong” bs.)
I would argue that AIslop goes against some pretty central Haiku values, at least as I perceive them - building things correctly, and building systems for humans. Should a system built for humans not also be built by humans? Should the official community infrastructure of that system not also uphold that ideal?
There’s also the simple fact that there’s no controversy around purely human-created software, and lots of controversy around machine-generated software. Either prohibiting or compartmentalizing AIslop on the forum is going to be a lot more effective at avoiding the constant flamewars than saying “shrug, you can post it but people can criticize it.”
If this were my forum, or one of the sites I personally control, the rule I’d have already implemented is strict no-genAI. But this isn’t a “me” place, it’s an “us” place.
I’m not interested in forcing everyone in a shared space to follow the rules I think are best; I only want a solution that let’s me have what I want (no genAI material) in my own experience of the space while letting the folks who want something different have the experience they want from it.
And since this fight has come up several times recently, I have some idea what other people are after and tried to come up with a solution (within the limits of the forum software) that would let each user decide for themselves rather than having an experience dictated to them.
I do realize that this whole “I don’t want to control anyone else” approach is somewhat out of touch with the general mode of the modern world.
Ah, well, I don’t really want this to be a fight in the first place. Hence the idea that if you do lay down your arguments we can then reach a compromise or good middle ground. (or we discover that this is incompatible)
In any case, yes obviously we don’t want to control people here, the main goal is that this keeps beeing a good forum for the Haiku community
Wouldn’t AiSlop be something that fully made by Ai, in this case, it is a human make most of the work with ai being a assistant rather than a author now with evidence of Ai being helpful and useful on it
All these feature were because of ai, the only that didn’t cause that much of a Out roar was the email view and that was because it was label multiple times stating it was made with AI, AI assisted software has achieve a lot for haiku because we are using it as a tool and not a fully generated product or making those weird AI video these ai creation were fully made for Haiku with all these are not vibe code all of this purely full code that was made for haiku
I don’t know who the mods are, but you’re probably correct that the mod team shouldn’t be mostly developers; for one thing, forum moderation is not the best use we can make of the limited time our most experienced coders have available. I’d much rather y’all were improving the OS than spending your time dealing with forum squabbles.
It’s not really up to non-mods to “take up the hat of modereation”, though; y’all have to invite people to join the moderation team. You should never give mod privs to anyone who asks for them.
As for “devs vs users”, having a mod team that’s mostly not developers and the giving discretion over forum policy to that team instead of the dev team would definitely solve any perception that forum issues are that.
I have no idea if the Haiku community is large enough to field a moderation team that’s not mostly developers, though.
