HaikuDepot Featured Packages overhaul

[michel]

So after I voiced some issues on this forum about the Featured Apps section on this forum, I am happy to announce that I am now the guy to talk to about this.

But I need your help. The idea here is to develop a systematic approach with community involvement, not for me to become the Featured App czar who just lists my personal favourites. Replacing one idiosyncratic collection with another is not going to get us anywhere.

If you are a longtime user you probably know to go to the second tab, where you can access all application. But the Featured apps tab is the first thing a newbie sees in the HD app. It is, in effect, an advertisement for Haiku. What do we want them to see?

If you are an aspiring developer, you probably know how to find what you need on the All Packages tab. We can certainly highlight a general-purpose IDE like Genio in Featured, but this is mostly about end-user applications.

Applications that are part of a default Haiku installation do not need to be Featured. Ever. But I’ll have to check if that list is the same on 32-bit and 64-bit installations (looking at you, Wonderbrush!)

I personally have a soft spot for CLI apps, but they don’t belong in Featured Apps.

There is a small list of Applications that I will call the Permanent List. These are the big ports with name recognition, plus the major browsers. Seeing that “Oh, they have LibreOffice/GIMP/Inkscape” immediately gives the new user confidence in Haiku. Apart from those, my feeling is to give a slight preference to major native applications. Here’s what I have so far:
abiword
artpaint
audacious
audacity
beam
becasso
beezer
calligra suite
calibre
chocolate doom
classicube
dooble
falkon
Firefox (the moment it appears on the depot!)
gimp
hexen II: hammer of thyrion
inkscape
libreoffice
otter-browser
web

I could use some help with the game titles. We have different versions of DOOM and minecraft-alikes. That’s name recognition right there, but are these the best versions to push? I’m not a gamer, so help me out there.

Next, there is a constantly changing Temporary list (around ten apps) which serves to keep the Featured tab fresh and dynamic. When a brand-new app or a major update (4.1 to 4.2 is a major update, 4.1-1 to 4.1-2 is not) hits the depot, it gets featured immediately (well, give me a week or so). It will be Featured for about a month. longer if nothing new shows up, shorter if there is a flood of new applications. If enough people return to this thread and clamour for an app to be made permanent, fine, but we may then have to talk about what to remove, because we really don’t want this to grow beyond 30 entries, maximum.

BTW, I originally thought of setting up a system to feature all apps on a rotating system. That concept lasted until I actually made a list. Would you believe that we have over 460 distinct end-user applications? At the rate of one new Featured app per week, it would take NINE YEARS for the list to fully rotate even if nothing new ever appeared in the depot. Clearly this is not manageable.

Finally, I would suggest that we start this with HaikuPorts packages first. We can think about including FatElk and Besly later. Let’s just get the show on the road first.

Okay, that’s the concept. We use some big-name ports to advertise how far Haiku has come, we point out that we have some pretty good native apps, and we reward developers and maintainers who update their apps with a moment of glory on the Featured Apps tab . Let me have your ideas.

[PulkoMandy]

Thanks for taking care of this!

@michel

abiword

Is it a wise choice? The upstream is unmaintained and the Haiku port has its own additional problems. And we have libreoffice now, so I’m not sure there are any reasons to use Abiword.

Another question: do you plan to make use of user ratings in HaikuDepot? Is there a way to list the apps with highest average rating or with the most votes? It may highlight some apps that the forum users may not think about.

Finally, a few of my personal favorites:

• LnLauncher
• NetSurf (you already have several other browsers, maybe we don’t want to feature all of them?)
• Vim (and I guess people will also look for emacs, or the native alternatives such as Pe, Koder, Genio and Paladin?)

[BiPolar]

Some of my “must have”:

• Beezer
• QuickLaunch
• BePDF

Also, CapitalBe might make me finally stop using paper to keep track of my budget

[Nexus-6]

I think there is room for both the Featured list and a Haiku Essentials.
I don’t know if this can be easily accommodated with the current system but while the former would be well suited for a rotating list, the latter may be more permanent and include apps like BePodder, StreamRadio, Clipdinger and such (just a few preferred apps of mine, of course).
By the way, many thanks for volunteering! This is much appreciated.

[michel]

@PulkoMandy

Is it a wise choice? The upstream is unmaintained and the Haiku port has its own additional problems. And we have libreoffice now, so I’m not sure there are any reasons to use Abiword.

I wasn’t aware of that. it’s off the list, thanks.

@PulkoMandy

Another question: do you plan to make use of user ratings in HaikuDepot? Is there a way to list the apps with highest average rating or with the most votes? It may highlight some apps that the forum users may not think about.

You can list by rating

But frankly, the rating system has not been used by the community to an extent that it becomes statistically significant. Look at KoolReader on that screenshot. Five stars, very impressive. But that hides the fact that it has exactly ONE review. Perhaps we need a bit of a campaign to make users aware of this feature, and a bit of a rubric to help them along (i.e. don’t give something 5 stars just because it runs)? I’ll think of making a video on that.

Still, it is a factor that I’ll need to look into. If there are too many updates coming in, ratings can act as a tiebreaker.

@PulkoMandy

LnLauncher

Interesting choice, and with Abiword off the list, we have an open slot. Any other votes for it?

@PulkoMandy

NetSurf (you already have several other browsers, maybe we don’t want to feature all of them?)

I like it too, but it’s not a major browser. If we include it, does Dillo deserve an entry too?

@PulkoMandy

Vim (and I guess people will also look for emacs, or the native alternatives such as Pe, Koder, Genio and Paladin?)

Genio is in active development. Under the regime I suggest, it would have been Featured four times since May 2023:

Pe is part of a default installation. The user already has it, why does it need to be featured?

Vim/emacs are hardcore developers’ tools. If you are going to develop, you should be computer-savvy enough to click on the second tab. IMHO anyway,

[michel]

@BiPolar

Beezer

Already got it

@BiPolar

QuickLaunch

Hmm, a pattern emerging here. People really like launchers. What does that tell us about DeskBar?

@BiPolar

BePDF

Isn’t that installed by default these days? Must check on that.

@BiPolar

CapitalBe

Now that it’s in active development again. It will be in the Featured tab regularly.

[nephele]

I don’t think having three browsers featured makes sense, especially not firefox. A browser that is “maybe” ported in the future and about as much spyware and quite literally malicious software as google chrome.

There is not even a port available, and generally, with the atrocious and hacky way of the gtk port I don’t think any gtk applications should be featured whatsoever.

(check for example mozilla installing literal adware for mr robot in germany with their “studies” Programm)

I don’t think we can gurantee that we have removed all of this crap from the browser, and aslong as we have not we should definitely not feature it. And when we have we probably loose the rights to use the firefox name since we’ve substantially modified the software. (e.g how Debian had to rebrand firefox for a long time)

Audacity should also not be featured, it is questionable from a privacy standpoint, and would give the impression that audio recording/cutting works on Haiku, where it mostly can’t even record audio properly.

@michel

I like it too, but it’s not a major browser. If we include it, does Dillo deserve an entry too?

Netsurf definetely does deserve an entry, It is already mentioned in the haiku FAQ as fallback for not having SSE2, has it’s own rendering engine and actually native port.

@michel

Genio is in active development. Under the regime I suggest, it would have been Featured four times since May 2023:

Maybe choosing updates is not the best strategy?

I do think we need either Pe or Koder, it would be good to pick one or two options for a category instead of making the list huge.
We can make a separate native apps list later.

What I am personally missing is WonderBrush too, one of the absolute best vector graphics drawing programs I know and native.

Stuff beeing preinstalled should not remove it from the featured list.

[PulkoMandy]

@michel

But frankly, the rating system has not been used by the community to an extent that it becomes statistically significant.

Yes, that’s why I asked if it was possible to get applications with the most votes (no matter what the value of the votes were). That would allow to see applications testes and rated by a lot of users.

@michel

I like it too, but it’s not a major browser. If we include it, does Dillo deserve an entry too?

I don’t know, but Dooble for example isn’t exactly a major browser either, outside of Haiku either. I would say having Firefox (when available), Web, and maybe just one of the Qt browsers (Falkon or Otter or Dooble, I don’t know which is best as I don’t use them) would be enough. And maybe NetSurf for low end machines without SSE2 support (that is what the error message in WebPositive will recommend in that case).

@michel

Vim/emacs are hardcore developers’ tools. If you are going to develop, you should be computer-savvy enough to click on the second tab.

Yes, I said it was my personal favorites, and I just thought about what I am using, not what I think is useful to other Haiku users (how would I know?). I’m not sure what other criteria I would use, but of couse, this is biased towards my own uses. Let’s see what other people suggest and hopefully there will be some kind of pattern from it.

And, yes, I will go and fill some ratings too if I have not done so already

[michel]

@Nexus-6

I think there is room for both the Featured list and a Haiku Essentials.
I don’t know if this can be easily accommodated with the current system but while the former would be well suited for a rotating list, the latter may be more permanent and include apps like BePodder, StreamRadio, Clipdinger and such (just a few preferred apps of mine, of course).

If you mean adding a third tab in the HD app, that’s above my paygrade.

But the quick and easy way to do this would be a meta-package. Half an hour’s work if you can get consensus on what should be in it. And I’d be happy to Feature that.

[michel]

@nephele

I don’t think having three browsers featured makes sense, especially not firefox. A browser that is “maybe” ported in the future and about as much spyware and quite literally malicious software as google chrome.

There is not even a port available, and generally, with the atrocious and hacky way of the gtk port I don’t think any gtk applications should be featured whatsoever.

(check for example mozilla installing literal adware for mr robot in germany with their “studies” Programm)

I don’t think we can gurantee that we have removed all of this crap from the browser, and aslong as we have not we should definitely not feature it. And when we have we probably loose the rights to use the firefox name since we’ve substantially modified the software. (e.g how Debian had to rebrand firefox for a long time)

Well, yes, I agree that we’re not going to Feature a package that isn’t available yet. That was more forward-looking.

@nephele

Audacity should also not be featured, it is questionable from a privacy standpoint, and would give the impression that audio recording/cutting works on Haiku, where it mostly can’t even record audio properly.

Done. It’s off the list.

@nephele

Netsurf definetely does deserve an entry, It is already mentioned in the haiku FAQ as fallback for not having SSE2, has it’s own rendering engine and actually native port.

Okay, strong feelings in favour of Netsurf. I’ll put it on.

@nephele

I do think we need either Pe or Koder, it would be good to pick one or two options for a category instead of making the list huge.

@nephele

Stuff beeing preinstalled should not remove it from the featured list.

Okay, there we have a difference of opinion. I’m not trying to pick a fight about this, this is a genuine question. I see the Featured list as “Now that you have installed Haiku, here is some great software you can install.” How do you see it? let’s see if we can get to a shared understanding of why we Feature an app before I go ahead and change things.

[Cell]

Krita would be a good addition, it’s has far more features on GiMP and is stable on Haiku. I would also say LMMS for the same reasons. This is more personal opinion, but Okular from KDE is a far better ePUB reader then calibre. Despite the finnicking with the fonts. I would also add Chocolate Doom (GZDoom is far too outdated at the moment) and RetroArch. Inkscape is pretty cool. Kate is a good code editor. I would also recommend Remmina, MediaConverter, Minetest and Gwenviewer. I also like Moe but that requires commandline usage and isn’t very user friendly. I also want to recommend WordClock!

[michel]

@PulkoMandy

I don’t know, but Dooble for example isn’t exactly a major browser either, outside of Haiku either. I would say having Firefox (when available), Web, and maybe just one of the Qt browsers (Falkon or Otter or Dooble, I don’t know which is best as I don’t use them)

I do. Falkon is clearly the most advanced. Let me take Dooble and Otter off.

[michel]

@Cell

Krita would be a good addition, it’s has far more features on GiMP and is stable on Haiku. I would also say LMMS for the same reasons. This is more personal opinion, but Okular from KDE is a far better ePUB reader then calibre. Despite the finnicking with the fonts. I would also add Chocolate Doom (GZDoom is far too outdated at the moment) and RetroArch. Inkscape is pretty cool. Kate is a good code editor. I would also recommend Remmina, MediaConverter, Minetest and Gwenviewer. I also like Moe but that requires commandline usage and isn’t very user friendly. I also want to recommend WordClock!

Okay, lots of recommendations here. Thanks for reminding me about Krita, it’s on.

LMMS is new to me, I claim no musical talent. Thanks

I’ve got Inkscape and chocolate doom.

I put Calibre on more as a library manager than as a reader. But I’ve had a look, it seems reasonably actively maintained so it can come up on that basis. Okular it is.

Are you proposing minetest as a better alternative to clasiccube? They seem to be playing in the same sandbox (pun intended)

[Jim]

Seems nobody has mentioned Medo, the native Haiku Media Editor. I hope it is still stable in beta 5 RCs.

[michel]

Let me see - video editor, yup we don’t have one of those yet. Native is good.

[michel]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I’m still trying (and failing) to keep it to twenty permanent residents, so not everything is there yet. But here is where we stand.

armyknife
artpaint
audacious
beam
becasso
beezer
calligra suite
chocolate doom
classicube / minetest
falcon
gimp
inkscape
koder
krita
libreoffice
lnlauncher
lmms
medo
netsurf
okular
quicklaunch
sum-it
web
wonderbrush

I’m not posting this to shut down the conversation, BTW. In fact, I’m sure this will be one of those threads that will go on for years and years …

[Starcrasher]

Missing are some very useful utilities like NetPulse, WorkspaceNumber, KeymapSwitcher, also TAResizer even if its workflow can be puzzling at first. I would add a native game 2048 or BeMines.
And something mandatory for beginners … Tipster.

Another thing missing even if it is off topic.
I would add something that tells you that there’s another tab with all packages and also that devel and sources packages are available just not shown by default.
Perhaps a window that shows up when you launch HD with check box “Ok, stop reminding me.”
Why not something that shows only on first launch? Because, the first time you often don’t take time to read but mostly because you can install for someone else and that person has to see the message.

[TmTFx]

@michel

What does that tell us about DeskBar?

A clever question that I have had many times

@nephele

I don’t think any gtk applications should be featured whatsoever

I’m with you

@nephele

Netsurf definetely does deserve an entry

Here no, Featured Apps should be the haiku showcase to get the best experience in this OS, not the (remote possibility) fallback experience.

@michel

BTW, I originally thought of setting up a system to feature all apps on a rotating system

I like the idea of a rotating “Advertised apps”. But I think that the picks should be based 50% on installations done by the user and the other 50% on random/fixed rotational list as you described, in this way if I am a sound lover I get more “advertisiments” about music apps than other apps that I don’t care.
(this means modify HaikuDepot code)

In this way, along with featured apps, there are apps (like Genio) that can receive attention if I install developers apps or libraries

[nephele]

@michel

Okay, there we have a difference of opinion. I’m not trying to pick a fight about this, this is a genuine question. I see the Featured list as “Now that you have installed Haiku, here is some great software you can install.” How do you see it? let’s see if we can get to a shared understanding of why we Feature an app before I go ahead and change things.

For me I see this as a “Here is some software we think you will genuinely enjoy (no strings attached)”

So software we expect to:

• Properly work for it’s intended purpose
• Have some recourse where we (as developers) can fix issues (bug tracker, actually useable code base, etc)

And secondary concerns:

• not use too many ressources
• ideally not require to download too much stuff

I also think that for a longer installation it is perfectly viable to de-install some stuff and later re-install it. Also haiku “flavors” might be a thing, where certain stuff is preinstalled. Or a cutdown image with only minimal stuff.

HaikuDepot already allows to not show installed packages, perhaps it could make it clear in the list also what is already installed.

[Cell]

Hmm, a pattern emerging here. People really like launchers. What does that tell us about DeskBar?

My personal problem with it is that there’s no easy way to add shortcuts and is not friendy to customization (that blue leaf haunts me)