Do you seriously believe in Haiku as a desktop OS?

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Ok, I’ve read in some places that Haiku is designed to be a desktop OS. I can’t tell If you’re serious or not and I’m kind of new to this OS, but here’s my honest opinion: It will never happen.

Why? Because It isn’t focused on the needs of a real desktop OS for common people.

There are mainly 3 needs that I need on my desktop OS:

  • Being able to use my apps/software
  • Having the OS detect all hardware I throw at it. Any peripheral I plug in, needs to be recognized. I should have flawless performance and of course, my computer should be detected as well
  • Having a bug-free experience or with very few If any bugs

Due to the architecture of Haiku, It is simply impossible. First of all, Haiku doesn’t run .exe files natively nor at the VERY LEAST can It run MacOS programs natively. It will have the same problem as Linux but even worse.
Software and game developers try to reach the widest audience. They will see Haiku, a 0,00001% market share or something tiny and won’t port their software because It’s not worth the effort. The market share will also stay tiny because why should people use an inferior OS that doesn’t fulfill their needs and can’t even run their apps.
Now, you may try to rely on WINE, like Linux did but you will encounter the same issue: WINE is buggy, slow and can’t even run some formats of Windows apps like UWP. There are also some things that will probably NEVER work in WINE properly even after 50 years of skilled development like DRMs.

They will literally never catch up, Windows keeps adding new stuff like UWP as I said, new APIs, new functions and all this stuff: It’s simply impossible.

And please don’t tell me “We will create our own open source alternatives and outcompete Adobe, Microsoft and Apple with our nice team of 10 volunteers”. Nice joke, others tried and they all failed. Your small team of amateurs simply can’t compete with big billions dollars multinationals.

Now, for the hardware point:
Hardware vendors won’t play nice with you, their plans will be closed source and they won’t create a Haiku port. Some may even try to actively break compatibility with non-Windows OS.

How will you deal with this? Will you try to create drivers one by one for each piece of hardware? Or try to create “generic drivers”? Anyway, managing to just get them barely working will be almost impossible for you. So many hardware is created every day and there will be more and more, meanwhile your team of programmers barely grow. It’s not sustainable.

But even If you only get it working, that’s only 10% of the work, you’ve done: congratulations! Now there is performance, will you get the same performance? Will you get all the features present in the hardware, for example: provide the same software that comes with the printer allowing me to manage the levels of ink etc, the control panels in gaming components allowing me to manage the cooling, check the perf etc? The answer of all of this is: PROBABLY NOT!

A desktop OS where I live in fear, each time I plug a new peripheral isn’t viable, period.

Now, for the last point concerning bugs.

Honestly, the architecture of the OS, doesn’t matter so much with good programming. With more popularity and the open source nature of the OS, It will come down naturally eventually.

There are of course, other problems like marketing, Windows being pre-installed in laptops and so on, but these are fixable too and aren’t as big of a deal as the issues above.

But, I seriously can’t see Haiku being viable without addressing the software and hardware issue. These are the fundamentals: hardware and software. Not addressing them, would be setting itself for failure like Linux.

Any thoughts on this?

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You know there is no OS in the world that can do what you claimed.

I guess you should stop using computers.

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Wow, i does not like people like you, joining a community and doing all bad. If you does not like a alternative system go away and stay there you are.

I hope you will be banned, because you have no interest helping us by this project.

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Microsoft Windows can clearly achieve the first two points. For software, because of its popularity Windows enjoy having the most software. All big hits, you can be sure of seeing them in Windows. Productivity programs like Adobe, Microsoft suite, games, It’s all there. Windows can clearly fulfill the needs of people when It comes to software and it’s clearly reflected in its market share.

Hardware. Manufacturers try to make their hardware compatible with the most systems as Possible. For computers this necessarily involve Windows, so you can be sure 98,8% of the time that your hardware will work and be supported.

Now for bugs, I won’t try to argue with this one, but If you think that other operating systems have less bugs than Windows, I don’t know what to say and you probably never used them for a long time (aka doing anything else than opening a browser)

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Nope: He said all peripherals, my old phone does not work with any newer OS. My custom hardware will not work if I just plug it in.

So what he demands is not possible anyway.

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Doesn’t your old phone work with Windows XP?
OF course, YOUR custom hardware needs tinkering, but If you’re the producer of it, that’s on you not the normal customer.

I never expected Haiku or any other OS to be compatible with stuff from 100 years ago, I wasn’t talking about backward compatibility (even though Windows is a lot lot better at backward compatibility than any other OS)

I said all normal peripherals I throw at it, not all peripherals in the world. Me, like normal people, don’t use hardware that’s outdated more than 5-10 years ago.

But nice play on the semantics and trying to downplay design issues in Haiku and not address any points in my post.

It’s whataboutism at best and even then, It’s a failed attempt at it.

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I don’t understand what the end game is here.

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I mean, If you want to create a desktop OS that is used by normal everyday people, these are the requirements: Running a lot of software and not missing key ones, the industry standard of each category should be available for all industries. I should be able to edit videos with Avid or Premiere, read and edit pdfs with Adobe Acrobat, edit pictures with Photoshop, music with Ableton and so on.
If that’s not possible, then Haiku will never be used for serious work and this will alienate a lot of users like Linux did.

For Hardware, the OS should be compatible with most modern hardware. I should never have to worry as to whether It will work or not, It should be like Windows.

Both of those are ONLY the fundamentals, the starting block. If those aren’t fulfilled, then regardless of the ease of use, speed or other factors Haiku won’t be able to be used as a desktop OS.

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Just a quick few points and then I’m done with this nonsense topic.

As mentioned already, no OS in existence fulfills any of the three points you request, including Windows (which seems to be your home OS).

Being able to use my apps/software
You can’t run Linux/MacOS/Haiku applications on Windows out of the box. So, Windows:Reality => 0:1.

Having the OS detect all hardware I throw at it. Any peripheral I plug in, needs to be recognized.
I should have flawless performance and of course, my computer should be detected as well
You can’t attach most of hardware to Windows and it runs out of the box. You nearly always need to install custom driver software. So, Windows:Reality => 0:2.

Having a bug-free experience or with very few If any bugs.
Windows software and drivers have a lot of bugs, especially if you use all kinds of different type of software. So, Windows:Reality => 0:3.

In sports this is called a hat-trick for Reality :smiley:

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You can’t run Linux/MacOS/Haiku applications on Windows out of the box.

Except that in real life, the industry standard for most everyday software is in Windows or MacOS, not Linux. As I said, Avid, Premiere, Photoshop, Microsoft Office, Camtasia, games, DRM’ed ebooks and most other important software people need are not on Linux.

The only exclusive thing Linux has going on for it is privacy, but people don’t care about this or facebook would’ve been out of business a long time ago.

You can’t attach most of hardware to Windows and it runs out of the box. You nearly always need to install custom driver software.

It’s definitely not the norm. On Windows, in 99% of the time you plug in something and It works. Or you have to wait for a few minutes, when It automatically install the driver. If It still doesn’t work check the notice and read the instructions. This will work in 98,99% of the time.

On Linux for WIFI card drivers (thing that is automatically recognized on Windows btw), you have to hunt for drivers all over the place, run a lot of commands in a terminal, follow different and conflicting guides and It may not even work. A lot of hardware simply does not have ANY DRIVER at all. It’s not uncommon that Linux distros fail to boot and can’t even install at all, where I take this for granted in Windows.
I could go on for hours, but It would be VERY dishonest to claim that Linux doesn’t have any problem when It comes to drivers.
In Windows, It’s problem-free THE VERY MAJORITY OF THE TIME.

Windows software and drivers have a lot of bugs, especially if you use all kinds of different type of software.

No, shit some softwares have bugs, I was talking bugs in THE OS, not software installed in it. Windows rarely (If ever) fails to boot, delete my files or send me an error when I try to do something.

On Linux I get ALL THE TIME fucking errors when I try to do basic stuff. Clean install, going to the software center to install an app, I click “install” and… I get an error. Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME. And the answer for this is always the same go to the terminal, to fix this.

Again, I could go on for hours but I don’t want to share too much of all my disastrous experience with Linux and be reminded of this shit.

I don’t want Haiku to be headed the same way, but apparently It seems that you don’t really care…

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Clearly you have not tried to use older hardware with any OS. The drivers for my phone are not even on the website that supports that brand. The often happens with older hardware - AND YOU SAID “ANY”. There is nothing about normal peripherals in your original message.

ANY means ALL. Stop trying to move your own goalposts.

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Because I was clearly talking about normal usage, but If you want to talk about semantics, well.

But If that please you I will word it like that: Haiku shouldn’t lack drivers for hardware that works in Windows. Happy with that?

Does your hardware work with other OS, especially open source ones?

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Nope, they are your requiments, please do not present them as general ultimate requiments.

But this actually boils down to money, and in a free world everybody should be free to give money to companies to get what required. Maybe i missed the part where you contacted the listed companies to support Haiku and asking for a price-quote.

You lost me at this part. There is Windows in nice box in every tech shop, if you need that, buy that.

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Nope, they are your requiments, please do not present them as general ultimate requiments.

For anyone doing anything else than browsing the web, they are definitely the requirements. Some people actually need to get work done. For a modern OS to even CONSIDER competing with Windows, you need apps.

But this actually boils down to money, and in a free world everybody should be free to give money to companies to get what required. Maybe i missed the part where you contacted the listed companies to support Haiku and asking for a price-quote.

Haiku is not my OS and I don’t have any duty to help it. If I need these apps, I prefer to go on cheaper competitors like Windows and I doubt that I’m the only one thinking like this.

You lost me at this part. There is Windows in nice box in every tech shop, if you need that, buy that.

So Haiku is not supposed to be an everyday OS and Windows should be used instead?

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No, i didnt said that. I told only: everybody should be free to pick an os which best suits his needs.

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I really think that nobody should reply to that guy anymore by giving him/her value and loose time. I agree with @lelldorin. Let him go somewhere else to troll and play around.

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I really think that nobody should reply to that guy anymore by giving him/her value and loose time. I agree with @lelldorin. Let him go somewhere else to troll and play around.

So asking the community what It is going to do to solve the problem that Haiku doesn’t run .exe files is trolling?

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It is not a bug but a feature :slight_smile:

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It is not a bug but a feature :slight_smile:

Lacking 95% of all important programs is not a problem? So, basically you don’t want normal desktop users using Haiku? If that’s the case, you should probably stop marketing it as a desktop OS, then.

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I live in dystopian Victoria, where to everyone’s amazement the society went in 80 days from a liberal western free democracy to an autheriterian fascist state where freedom of expression has been extinguished, criticism of the government censored and and with the latest bills introduced to parliament police will have power to detain anyone who doesn’t agree with the local premiers propaganda. Facebook and Twitter have been instructed to censor anyone who is vocal against the powers that be. It’s happening in a lot of former ‘liberal’ countries, and it doesn’t require a vivid imagination to see this intrusion reach down to big corporate computer systems as well. I cannot believe what I’m seeing, but there will be a day when the big software vendors will be instructed to prohibit generation and publishing of ‘non sanctioned’ material. I’m still in shock that all of this has happened in 80 days, and every day it’s getting darker. And the sad fact of the matter is that the users do not control the OS, or the big vendor applications.

That wonderful copy of Office that you cherrish will eventually send everything you do to “the cloud”, where they’ll promote this feature as giving you more features / powers, but it will also record everything you do and the day will come where it will prohibit you from doing everything you wish. There will be a day when a mainstream OS will start scanning your family photos and flag a bathing photo of your infant child as something which should be censored. An innocent video of a father kissing his daughter on the forehead may be flagged as risky, and a goon squad might come bashing down your door in the middle of the night.

I dont want my personal computer to be controlled by a corporation. I want my applications to be open source, so that I can see that there is no spying targeting me, an ordinary citizen.

It will take time, and with every improvement Haiku gains, a barrier to adoptoin is dropped, which will generate a further number of users + developers, and like an avalanche, it will generate more mass and speed.

My primary home OS is now Haiku. I’m working on a video editor for Haiku which I want to release before Christmas. After that I will work on presentation software (also do titles for video). Other developers will create other apps. Some developers are porting most of Linux apps to Haiku (LibreOffice, Krita, Blender, etc). Eventually the lack of applications will no longer be a problem with Haiku. In Linux, these days the HW vendors create Linux drivers. They will do the same with Haiku. And since Haiku is a unified system, I expect the quality to be better. At this point in time, Haiku’s primary users are ex BeOS users and Linux users. In time, we will offer a better migration experience to Windows and OSX users. They will be looking for a working Open Source OS in due time anyway, and will start walking away from closed source corporate computer systems.

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