Accountability and Criticism

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I am making this post because the Haiku team doesn’t want to hear it. I’ve been waiting like a decade for Haiku to be usable, and it just continues to not be usable. Either Haiku Inc. is not paying for enough people to get the job done, or the contributors just don’t actually give a crap about the project’s usability state. This is not how you make software, let alone good software.

I say all of this because I was really hoping that Haiku would turn into something great. But when the devs want to remain blind to any and all criticisms of how they manage this project, the speed at which they are getting features in, and their hostility towards users when it appears, then this project was dead to begin with.

What are the problems? Well first off lets start with my specific problems and then go more general: on beta4 my keyboard and touchpad on one of my laptops don’t even work. On the nightlies SMP is completely broken for my laptop. Haiku is also broken on my other laptop from over a decade ago.

Which brings me to this: You haven’t focused enough on hardware support. You’re too busy fixing webbrowsers and porting GTK and have ignored the things that are needed before you do all of that crap - hardware. The further you wait on this, the further haiku gets behind on hardware support, because hardware is not going to stop evolving and wait for Haiku to catch up. That’s the reality.

You’re only volunteers, you say? Well, other projects have gotten hardware support done much quicker than y’all have with volunteers as well, so that’s no excuse for some of this stuff, especially when Haiku has been a project since well before 2004, much much earlier than some of the other new Operating System projects.

But the fact that there are only volunteers on this project is exactly the problem. You need full-time developers, not volunteers. You need people consistently working on this project trying to get it running for everyone.

With this comes the lack of respect for users. The Haiku team completely lacks respect for their users. In case it hasn’t set in yet, you only get donations from your users and people who believe in the project. You are $5,000 away from your goal with only 3 months left for a reason. We don’t live in fairy land - the reality is projects need money to allow for developers to spend time working to make that project good. That is the reality. This isn’t about becoming rich or famous. Good software requires time and work, which requires being able to live off of this time and work. You get the money by treating your users with enough respect that you actually try to give support to the people trying to use your software.

The lack of proper management also means the project has very little direction and goals to meet. This is very apparent with Haiku. Most successful Open Source software has some management or direction, even if it’s a programmer that makes all of the decisions.

Frankly, ignoring these problems is not respectful to yourselves or your users. Hiding behind the shield of “we’re only volunteers” and rejecting people’s real criticisms is not respectful to your users. Take accountability, and do better.

But this will all go right over y’alls head because I have a feeling almost none of the Haiku Team actually cares about their users, they only care about how they can use Haiku for their own needs, and that, to me, is not how you make good software.

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Looks like the Haiku team can’t take criticism. Great, no wonder Haiku doesn’t get users. I’ve been watching this OS for years and years, and it’s still broken and unusable on two computers. Take the criticism and do better.

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If you don’t like Haiku, why are you here, trolling devs? Make it better, so you’ll like it, or just use another OS.

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I think I have explained my order of priorities clearly:

  1. Make the OS work for myself, because I use it everyday and I need it to work for my own use cases
  2. When I have time left, help other people with their problems as well

This seems reasonable to me. I would be happy to have more time for other people, but, unfortunately, just keeping an usable web browser and writing drivers for my own computer uses up pretty much all the time I can spend on Haiku.

It’s not a problem of mindset. I’m not interested in contributing to an OS I can’t use myself. So I get that done first. Not exclusively, just first. And I also won’t take input from people who say “I would contribute if your OS worked”, because the contributions are about getting the OS to work. So, what, are you waiting for someone else to do all the work? Who will that be? What do they get in return? Will they do it just for the fame anf glory and praise?

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Haiku is very usable right now for many people.
Maybe it’s not for you,because your specific hardware is not correctly supported right now,but does that really need such a big rant about the whole project being shit?
Getting GTK and Epiphany to work was a huge step forward for many users where the hardware is already supported,so they now have a browser where most of the websites work.
That did probably have a bigger impact than adding support for your - and only your - specific hardware configuration.
Also,the devs and the community here are very friendly - if you are friendly to them and report issues in a nice way.
That’s just my two cents here.
Maybe I’m making a mistake by feeding the troll,but I can’t stay quiet reading such nonsense.

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In large part I agree with @clseibold. The Haiku project should aim to hire at least one developer who’s task is to only work for R1 to be released. That means fixing critical bugs and improving the hardware support. @waddlesplash has the mandate to work on anything he wants and in most part I think he is working on the wrong parts. I stopped donating to Haiku a long time ago, and I used to be one of the top donors. The attitude of the developers (“patches welcome”) is the main reason I stopped donating.

I agree that getting a web browser that works on the modern web is important, but it is not as important as getting the operating system to work in a stable manner and with plenty of hardware support and it is not as important as releasing R1. When the operating system works sufficiently satisfactory for a large part of potential users and is stable (R1 is released), then those new users that have the will and knowledge will start to polish the system. Donations will also increase.

Haiku needs to focus on releasing R1.

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I have haiku running and tested on quite a variety of hardware, it is doing great.

What does not work in general:
Webcam
Fingerprint reader
Tochscreen

ThinkPad T430 / T430s alles geht
ThinkPad T431 seit beta4 alles ok
ThinkCentre m701 alles ok
HP EliteDesk Gen 6 alles ok
Yoga 15 sogar Touchscreen geht, WLAN nicht
T460s alles geht
T470s Touchpoint geht nicht
Dell XPS 13 geht

What is missing for me:

Multi monitor
Disk encryption

Better Browser, even if we positive and epiphany work quite well, they are not quite there yet

@clseibold what is the hardware you are trying to use, what are the exact problems and what are YOU doing to make haiku better other than complaining?

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It seems you are frustrated about Haiku. Good news: you dont have to. You can use a different OS, you can also switch off your computer and make an errand, spend time with family and friends. Do not waste time for thing what seems pointless or dead-end to you, our life is short, enjoy it while it last! Good luck!

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If you want my advice, take some time off, go for a walk and feed the ducks. It all makes more sense than following this discussion and where it leads.

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Let’s be “realistic” for a moment.

Windows is hugely bloated. Almost 3Gb of spyware. Modifications like AtlasOS help, but not entirely.

Linux is also starting to bloat. Just look at the huge amount of background processes in any Ubuntu. On the other hand there is IBM/Red hat, and their strange decision to limit access to source code? I would stay away from Red hat and Cannonical. Any day now they surprise us and put telemetry or trackers on their systems.

Mac OS… Better not even talk about it.

Honestly, Haiku is the only operating system that makes me happy. And I think many more people agree with me. And I think that’s the real reason people are frustrated. And the problem is aggravated when people want to help, but don’t have the skills to do it, or the time, or the money.

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It is amazing that same people complaining about hardware not working on Haiku or other open source projects are also buying products from companies that don’t provide open drivers. That’s not very encouraging for manufacturers who are playing the game. Those people would never complained on Microsoft site if their hardware wasn’t working with Windows. Actually, they would whine on manufacturer’s forum.
Why do they behave differently when it’s a open source project? Some companies are selling linux distributions and the support that goes with and you can expect some customer support. But, Haiku devs are not selling anything nor is the Inc. Manufacturers do, back to square one. If you believe in a world where money is the answer to everything, start by buying from those who have will and means to do the job and things will go smoother.
This said, it’s sad that it works that way but devs have to do with it.
If only people complaining were opening tickets, it would at least make problems known. A good soul passing by could even solve some.

Also note that ports are not done by Haiku devs but by Haikuports contributors, GTK and epiphany are not exceptions. Even if some devs are participating in both projects, they are different things.

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Intel and AMD do provide open drivers. Regardless, none of this has anything to do with Microsoft. Linux runs on my laptop just fine, and I would bet FreeBSD does too, so why does Haiku not after over 2 decades of work on the Operating System?!

People do complain to Microsoft when hardware isn’t supported. You’re trying to act like there’s some double-standard here, but there isn’t. Microsoft is crap, but at least Windows runs on my laptop. Haiku doesn’t. So it is beyond disrespectful to criticize people for using an Operating System that works over ones that don’t.

Some companies are selling linux distributions and the support that goes with and you can expect some customer support.

I’ve had a System76 laptop before. It sucked, and the support was not that great. You want to play the “us vs. them” mentality of hating everyone that you think is a Microsoft fanboy, fine by me. But people are not actually that one-dimensional.

If you believe in a world where money is the answer to everything, start by buying from those who have will and means to do the job and things will go smoother.

What I believe is that the current situation isn’t working very well. That is what’s called being realistic. I can be idealistic all I want and encourage the fact that Haiku is Open Source, which is greatly appreciated by me and many others, but that doesn’t help the reality, which is that I’m not the only person having hardware problems with Haiku, and that developers clearly don’t have the time to work on Haiku for free when they have to feed their families. It is extremely entitled to claim that everyone should do everything for free.

If only people complaining were opening tickets, it would at least make problems known.

I already discussed the problems that I had in another thread. The devs couldn’t do anything about it because they don’t have to means to get the hardware to test on, and, frankly, because the project is badly managed.

Even if some devs are participating in both projects, they are different things.

Does that matter? The point is you cannot criticize people for not getting involved in Haiku when people cannot run the Operating System to begin with. I was planning on developing software for Haiku, but I cannot because Haiku doesn’t work on my computer.

I suggest instead of the community responding with “if you don’t like Haiku, just leave” you actually listen to the criticism that is being given. Because so far the community does not make me want to continue tracking this project.

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@clseibold believe it or not, I actually agree with your statements for the most part.

Too many “strong personalities” running the show in the late 2000’s pushed a lot of people away. Now it’s a skeleton crew of good people tweaking code here, changing code there with not much focus or direction. Also there are good people supporting Haiku’s dev infrastructure… they are the unsung heroes! To be fair, it is an open source project so people can tweak and make changes to what they want and really don’t have to contribute back the code if they don’t want to. That is the beauty and freedom of FOSS.

Focus and discipline delivers projects and great products. There is not a lot of that lately. And… (here is the terse part) if you or anyone expects leadership, focus or discipline from anyone involved with Haiku, Inc. non-profit, you are going to need to wait a very long time for anything like that. Haiku IS an excellent open source project. The problem is there is no structure to drive the right outcomes.

ps. Anyone who says “If you don’t like it go somewhere else” is apart of the problem and not apart of the solution. Apathy starts with these type statements… by very smart people who should know better.

/out

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Well, let´s fall for the trollbait. It´s raining here today, and they say fish catch better then.

You asked for help, yes. And when the answers didn´t suit you, descended into criticism and finger-pointings.

Your justification ( don´t know programming ) has exactly the same value as other people´s ( would need the hardware to do something ). Then instead of looking for ways to help solve the problem ( asking about raising money to buy the hardware, or looking for documentation, looking for cheap used hardware, etc ) start accusing the project and everybody, because they weren´t put enough work in it so that it would work for you.

If Beta4 boots in your machine, you can use usb keyboard and usb mice. Not ideal ? Maybe, but it works, and no need to pick fights with anyone.

If Haiku was focusing mostly on hardware support, we would be seeing a lot of people complaining about lack of browsers, asking to port chrome, firefox, palemoon, whatever. Instead of “these” people complaining, we would have “those” people complaining.

Hardware support needs hardware. Hardware costs money, and mostly after done, said hardware loses it utility. As explained to you before, people start with making Haiku work on their computers, so that they can use them. That means that some exotic piece of gear that just a few people have will take a longer time to be supported. Accusing people won´t make it happen faster.

The point with FOSS is that if people want the thing to progress, they need to find ways to help. With paid software, we shift the burden to its owners. With FOSS, we need to seek ways to help with whichever our capabilities are. To use one´s talents where they can be useful, instead of sitting aside and complaining that the lone people doing the cooking didn´t deliver you a royal meal.

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  • List your specific laptop/computer models here.
  • List your submitted bug reports here.
  • Use the stable snapshot of Haiku R1B4 (hrev56578) for now - unless a specific nightly snapshot (i.e. hrev57326 or higher) is recommended by the development team for testing.
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Like, if you call yourself a corporation, you’re already a billionaire. Unfortunately, that’s not how the economy works. The market for operating systems (like the monetary sector) is fairly saturated and monopolized — the economic demand for systems like Haiku is incalculably low.

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This thread is not constructive. Instead of seeing some issues and trying to think of ways to help, it throws stones at the productive members of the community. This is a futile waste of time and will not produce anything except resentment.

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@Munchausen I think this thread is very constructive. Sometimes the bandaid needs to be torn off in order for everyone to see the problem. These kind of discussion threads are needed to reduce resentment. I don’t support bad language and threats… I do support opinions of others based on facts, feelings and a mixture of both. That is how you cultivate a community in the absence of leadership.

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Haiku can only be useful to you as much as you make it useful to you. This is an amateur system made by volunteers.
From the simple user’s point of view, there is nothing in Haiku that makes it clearly better than other popular OSes.

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That is what I am doing right now!

I avoid to start Haiku, and use Windows.
Only if I know I can spent some time on Haiku I will start it and fiddle around and look for new things that might happen the last month… Only then I will run, test, and report bugs or things I found on Haiku! Which is very time consuming for me!
Some time I spent hours just to test and play around with Haiku!

For real work I cannot use it!
For gaming I cannot use it!
For video-chat I cannot use it!
But I really love and like Haiku!

Result: I have more time for important things and my frustrations level is very low now!

Don’t forget to leave good bug reports to help make Haiku more usable!