I think the crane which represents longevity fits perfectly. Bleh! It could be cartoony like tux.
I recommend with stick with the circle of leaves.
You can see an example of itās usage at my site:
RikkiRockett wrote:
I recommend with stick with the circle of leaves.
this has my vote too. simple, elegant, and beautiful. 
misspelled, perhaps. I dunnoā¦
But, let me see, leaves, oak tree, japanese, rare, beautiful, NOT FAT.
āJay the Jaybirdā
A lidithās Jay, was my suggestion. lidithās jays eat arcorns, small reptilesā¦
plus, like haiku-os, it really flies!
As far as leaves? or trees? well, itās an exotic jay, you figure it out! jeez! LOL
a ācircle of leavesā denotes were members of a cult of vegan wiccan naturists, therefore, it will not be a āmascotā as if it COULD be. 
Though, not to cast aspersionsā¦ heh.
tb100 wrote:
Perhaps you should go to http://www.openbsd.org and look at the picture on the frontpage. And those commercial products had to be approved by the non-geek (ie managment) of the company. And if those people where so against mascots, then OpenBSD wouldn't have commercial products based on it.
SigmaNunki wrote:And to the hobby/child OS remarks. Try saying that to Theo de Raadt of the OpenBSD project, which has a mascot. Sorry, but OBSD is no hobby/child OS and has a number of comercial products based on it. See a previous post for a link. Your arguments here have no weight.There are a number of commercial projects based on it, but do they have mascots? I would guess not. My dream for Haiku is that it will become a viable, professional OS in itās own right - it wonāt need a commercial entity to swoop in use it as a base for a ācommercial projectā. I think that is needed for an open source OS to be viable - a single entity responsible for the whole OS, ensuring consistency. However to achieve anything like that, it means Haiku needs to think about more things than most current open source projects. They/we need to consider future markets, image, etc.
SigmaNunki wrote:Any examples of majorly sucessful commercial products to back this up with? So mcdonalds have little fluffy Ronalds to attract the kids, that's not the market we're looking at. OBSD is technically a good system, which the technical people representing the commercial enitities you speak of recognise regardless of (I could even say despite) the mascot. However, the OBSD project themselves isn't aiming for any real user market share.Why don't we all come back to the realm of reality. Having a well thought out mascot would *not* take away from any project, it would enhance it.
tb100 wrote:
If it wasn't then what are they good for.
SigmaNunki wrote:It is up to the community to decide what suits it best (to have one or not, and if so what will it be) and to have it approved by those in charge of the project.I would hope it would be up to those in charge to decide whether or not to have one.
tb100 wrote:
Then make the suggestion to axe the bee for a logo because of this reason. It is very solid and hearing it I tend to agree. I said if before and I'll say it again, that is what this suggestion phase is for.
If they say yes, then we could maybe have a period of suggestion, then voting, as for the name. The problem is, most people who would vote would be ex-BeOS users so I would be suprised if anything other than a bee was picked. The danger is in 10 years time, a lot of the Haiku users won't have heard of Be Inc, Haiku won't look a lot like BeOS did (new visual design, multiuser, etc), and we'll be left with a mascot that for most people is one of the most annoying creatures on the planet (little pesky things that buzz around you when you're trying to enjoy a nice summer's day, then sting you and die). To me that's not a great image for the project.
And letās stick to being realistic, the dieing things is no reason not to pick it. The people that are so alergic to bee stings that theyāll die is rare and even then is not a garrentee as they will carry meds with them to prevent it.
EDIT: If you meant the bee dieing, then in my experience, people donāt think of that when they think of bees. They tend to think of flowers and honey.
tb100 wrote:
I didn't mean this as an absolute. But if the community wants USB 2.0 support then they should get it, etc. I meant that if the community wants things that go in the kernel or other parts of the OS they should get it. If people want something that isn't really part of the OS then people should develop it as a seperate program to the downloaded and installed. This later is the reason why Linux is so bloody bloated, too much other crap getting installed along with the OS.
I also think Haiku can't be operated in a "whatever the community wants, the community gets" style. Otherwise feature creep will take over and it will end up as bloated as linux.
IMO, the OS should be as simple as possible, packaged with all but the most nessasary support apps (prefs, etc.) and maybe come along with a few other binaries that can be installed (after the actual OS install) later. The rest should be by download (ie OpenBSDās ports tree :)).
tb100 wrote:
If I'm the first to say it I'll be suprised, but if I am, good for me ;)
SigmaNunki wrote:And just because when one looks a mascot elsewhere they tend to have a cartoon quality to them doesn't mean that the Haiku one will be that way too. Try thinking *out* of the box.An open source OS without a cheesy mascot? That is thinking out of the box IMHO.
And if you need an example of a commercial entity that uses a cute mascot you need look only as far as the Gecko Geico Lizard.
To respond to a few points:
-Commercial use: Any logo can be used to make T-Shirts, Mouse pads, etc. It doesnāt have to be a mascot. Also having a t-shirt with a mascot for an OS has got to be one of the ultimate geeky things. I think we should try and avoud the geeky image as much as possible - although I consider myself a bit of geek, and geeks will undoubtably be vital to the sucess of the project, we donāt really want to appear a āgeekā project, for fear of putting off the ācoolā people (or normal people :D)
SigmaNunki wrote:
I've followed your advice and been to the OpenBSD page. Wow, I can't believe this is being suggested as one of the best mascots out there. A strange puffer fish with eyebrows and stupidly enlarged lips with some other kind of fish on a cartoony style lead. Imagine if you were a poor windows user searching for an alternative and you happened upon that page. Doesn't look like a professional alternative to me.
Perhaps you should go to http://www.openbsd.org and look at the picture on the frontpage. And those commercial products had to be approved by the non-geek (ie managment) of the company. And if those people where so against mascots, then OpenBSD wouldn't have commercial products based on it.
I disagree with your point that managers must like the mascot to base their comercial product on - they would have their technical team present to them a load of gibberish on why OBSD is the best choice, and just accept it. They probably wouldnāt even visit the website. If they did, they know theyāll have their own website/logo for selling to customers, so theyāre not at all concerned about the branding of the OBSD team.
SigmaNunki wrote:
The one fact I know about bees is that they sting once, and then die. I did mean the bee dying by the way. It's also possible I could have been exagerating again :o, sorry!
EDIT: If you meant the bee dieing, then in my experience, people don't think of that when they think of bees. They tend to think of flowers and honey.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I mainly agree with you here, and it's off topic anyway so won't discuss it too much. I think there needs to be someone overall in charge who isn't afraid of saying "no" though - different people have different definitions of what "isn't really part of the OS", and having the vague definition won't be enough to prevent bloat IMHO.
I didn't mean this as an absolute. But if the community wants USB 2.0 support then they should get it, etc. I meant that if the community wants things that go in the kernel or other parts of the OS they should get it. If people want something that isn't really part of the OS then people should develop it as a seperate program to the downloaded and installed. This later is the reason why Linux is so bloody bloated, too much other crap getting installed along with the OS.
SigmaNunki wrote:
Again, mozilla is only really known in geek circles. Netscape don't use it, and note that firefox, which is more aimed at normal users, also doesn't appear to have a mascot.
And if you need an example of a commercial entity that uses a cute mascot you need look only as far as the Gecko Geico Lizard.
Another important point that hasnāt been mentioned yet, AFAICT, is that these other OSS projects donāt actually have a logo; and the mascot is used as a logo too. This is true for linux, OBSD, and mozilla anyway. Haiku already has a logo (2 if you count the word with leaves and the circle of leaves - both unified with the leaf motif though), and a very good one at that. Itās best not to try to associate too many different images with a product.
Iāll try and bash together a quick āoverlappingā leaf graphic that I mentioned before.
Simon
Hereās the leaf circle I mentioned. As you may be able to tell, Iām not an artist :D. Should give you an idea of what I was thinking of though, that a real artist could actually make look good.
Simon
tb100 wrote:
True, and you're going to have to explain to me why you think a mascot is geeky. It isn't. People who will just use an OS will not typically visit the OS's web site, they'll just have there "geek" friend install it and that'll be that. Anyone with enough motivation to look into alternative OS's is part of that "geek" catagory and thus won't be affected by the presense (or lack thereof) a mascot.
To respond to a few points: -Commercial use: Any logo can be used to make T-Shirts, Mouse pads, etc. It doesn't have to be a mascot. Also having a t-shirt with a mascot for an OS has got to be one of the ultimate geeky things. I think we should try and avoud the geeky image as much as possible - although I consider myself a bit of geek, and geeks will undoubtably be vital to the sucess of the project, we don't really want to appear a "geek" project, for fear of putting off the "cool" people (or normal people :D)
tb100 wrote:
Who said it was one of the best? I certainly didn't, I only suggested that I was a good example of a successful project (in more ways than one) that has a mascot. And windows users don't look for alternative OS's. They sit in there little world not even knowing that other OS's exist (in my experience of course). Quite frankly I find the idea that the average windows user would be searching for an alternative OS laughable (no offense intended).
I've followed your advice and been to the OpenBSD page. Wow, I can't believe this is being suggested as one of the best mascots out there. A strange puffer fish with eyebrows and stupidly enlarged lips with some other kind of fish on a cartoony style lead. Imagine if you were a poor windows user searching for an alternative and you happened upon that page. Doesn't look like a professional alternative to me.
And I must disagree with you opinion that OBSD doesnāt look like a professional alternative. It is considered by many (myself included) to be one of the more secure OSās in existance today. I would even dare to say the most secure OS (at least publicly availible).
tb100 wrote:
I didn't say that managers must like the mascot. I said that they must not be against them otherwise no project with a mascot would have a chance of getting any public or private funding or be used by industry in any real way. Go check out OBSD contributers page, you'll find that many individuals and companies have given money, hardware, etc to the project (http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html)
I disagree with your point that managers must like the mascot to base their comercial product on - they would have their technical team present to them a load of gibberish on why OBSD is the best choice, and just accept it. They probably wouldn't even visit the website. If they did, they know they'll have their own website/logo for selling to customers, so they're not at all concerned about the branding of the OBSD team.
tb100 wrote:
My suggestion would be, if 90%+ people need it, they get it. Of course it could just be included along with the distro and not installed by default in the case of apps. Haiku does have a long way to go before this becomes an issue though.
I think there needs to be someone overall in charge who isn't afraid of saying "no" though - different people have different definitions of what "isn't really part of the OS", and having the vague definition won't be enough to prevent bloat IMHO.
tb100 wrote:
You seemed to be asking for a commercial product that has a mascot, or at least that's what it seemed. You now have one, and a successful one at that.
SigmaNunki wrote:Again, mozilla is only really known in geek circles. Netscape don't use it, and note that firefox, which is more aimed at normal users, also doesn't appear to have a mascot.And if you need an example of a commercial entity that uses a cute mascot you need look only as far as the Gecko Geico Lizard.
tb100 wrote:
True, but I hardly think that a leaf logo and then some other related mascot is overloading people with images. If they are related (and they should be) there won't be any problem with association.
It's best not to try to associate too many different images with a product.
This discussion seems to have reached a bit of a stalemate; both of us obviously have our opinions and Iām not going to be able to change your mind in the same way you wonāt be able to convince me a mascot is a good idea.
Iāll respond to your latest comments, and that will probably be my last (long) post on the matter.
SigmaNunki wrote:
You're going to have to explain to me why you think a mascot is geeky. It isn't. People who will just use an OS will not typically visit the OS's web site, they'll just have there "geek" friend install it and that'll be that. Anyone with enough motivation to look into alternative OS's is part of that "geek" catagory and thus won't be affected by the presense (or lack thereof) a mascot.
A āmascotā is something with a character - something people can get on T-Shirts, something people can dress up as at really great LAN parties, something people can buy little fluffy toys of to sit next to their modded computer. It seems clearly geeky to me.
At the moment anyone interested in Haiku does fall into the geek category. Thatās not to say in a few years time it will still be an āalternativeā OS, and we should be ready for (and hoping for, planning for, and designing for) an influx of non-geek users.
SigmaNunki wrote:
And I find it sad that you don't see a possibility that there could be a shift in the market. Windows users might not know that other OSes exist now, but in 20 years average computer users might have Haiku preinstalled on their Dell computers, and might not know that other OSes exist either.
Windows users don't look for alternative OS's. They sit in there little world not even knowing that other OS's exist (in my experience of course). Quite frankly I find the idea that the average windows user would be searching for an alternative OS laughable (no offense intended).
Linux is picking up momentum in the popular press, some businesses and governments are switching to it. Whatās more, theyāre often happy to pay distributors hundreds of dollars to get it. Imagine the impact that could be made by a completely free (download a fully contained, easily installable package from the web) operating system that actually works pretty damn well too. Then I donāt think itās unreasonable to see favourable reviews in magazines, leading to more technically minded non-geek users giving it a try, leading to less technically minded non-geek users trying it too.
Iām not here because I want to be part of a 100-strong community. Iām here because I think BeOS has a lot of great ideas, I think Haiku is a revolutionary project done from the ground up with the user in mind, and I really feel Haiku could bring about a revolution in the computer industry. And the fact that I said revolution twice in the same sentence should give you an idea of how excited I am by the possibilities.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. I'm aware that OBSD is technically a good, stable, secure operating system. But on visiting the website, it doesn't *appear* to be much of an alternative for normal desktop users. I accept that they don't claim to be an alternative for normal desktop windows users, but Haiku certainly aims to fall into that category.
And I must disagree with you opinion that OBSD doesn't look like a professional alternative. It is considered by many (myself included) to be one of the more secure OS's in existance today. I would even dare to say the most secure OS (at least publicly availible).
SigmaNunki wrote:
Again I think you're misunderstanding me. People/Companies who would donate to an OSS OS project would do so on technical merit, not based on the presentation or branding of the OS. But if a lot of users are visiting your site and you want them to download your operating system, give it a try, and tell their friends about it, you really need to be careful what impression they get. The most important ideas they need to get from their first contact with the Haiku universe (this page) must be elegant and professional.
I didn't say that managers must like the mascot. I said that they must not be against them otherwise no project with a mascot would have a chance of getting any public or private funding or be used by industry in any real way. Go check out OBSD contributers page, you'll find that many individuals and companies have given money, hardware, etc to the project (http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html)
SigmaNunki wrote:
I don't think Mozilla is particularly sucessful in normal windows user circles - as I said FireFox is pushing itself as more a normal user alternative (with no mascot) and Netscape, the commercial version of moz which is much better known to non-geeks, also gets by without a mascot.
You seemed to be asking for a commercial product that has a mascot, or at least that's what it seemed. You now have one, and a successful one at that.
Finally, I like the fact that Haiku is different to other open source OS projects. Not having a mascot, but rather having a professional, elegant logo, combined with a professional, elegant website really makes Haiku stand out from the crowd.
Imagine a showdown of Open Source OSes in a normally windows-only PC Mag. Try to find the linux homepage; well there isnāt really one, it seems to be scattered into hundreds of seperate projects around the net, all involving some penguin in a cartoon or other; weird. Off to OBSD - strange looking mascot, very technically-heavy site clearly not aimed at normal users. Onto Haiku - slick design, elegant site and logo, simple download with an easy install process to get an entire OS up and running.
I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.
Simon
tb100 wrote:
My only point is that it isn't a bad idea, there is a difference. I believe that your opinion that a mascot will drive away people is quite humerous.
This discussion seems to have reached a bit of a stalemate; both of us obviously have our opinions and I'm not going to be able to change your mind in the same way you won't be able to convince me a mascot is a good idea.
tb100 wrote:
To *you*. Normal users are not aware of lan parties and most like little cute cuddly toys. That being said I've never been to a lan party and I don't like cuddly toys, but the average user at least won't take that into consideration when choosing an OS, at least the mentally stable ones won't.
SigmaNunki wrote:... It seems clearly geeky to me.You're going to have to explain to me why you think a mascot is geeky...
tb100 wrote:
Linux has been waiting for this as well for a long time. It hasn't happened because of windows massive advertising campain along with professional certs, etc. People have been brainwashed into thinking that windows is that only OS and those that know otherwise are locked into using it for one reason or another. ie company wants to pay for a product to get support - I know that this is laughable but managers don't think logically.
At the moment anyone interested in Haiku does fall into the geek category. That's not to say in a few years time it will still be an "alternative" OS, and we should be ready for (and hoping for, planning for, and designing for) an influx of non-geek users.
tb100 wrote:
I see absolutly no sign of this. I also see the dumbing down of the education system, not just in the US and Canada, but all over the world as well. People have become more centered on themselves and aren't really learning anything. Basically, over the past number of decades, I've seen the general intellegence level fall very steadily and there is no sign of it letting up.
SigmaNunki wrote:And I find it sad that you don't see a possibility that there could be a shift in the market. Windows users might not know that other OSes exist now, but in 20 years average computer users might have Haiku preinstalled on their Dell computers, and might not know that other OSes exist either.Windows users don't look for alternative OS's. They sit in there little world not even knowing that other OS's exist (in my experience of course). Quite frankly I find the idea that the average windows user would be searching for an alternative OS laughable (no offense intended).
tb100 wrote:
Mainly they are switching there servers to Linux (which isn't a good one IMO). And people are lazy. They will *not* want to learn a new OS no matter how similar it may be. I've been trying to get my parents to install Linux for a *long* time (KDE is *very* similar to the windows if) and they just don't want to even though every single program they run has a linux equivilent. They are the typical user and they don't want to even try linux, enough said.
Linux is picking up momentum in the popular press, some businesses and governments are switching to it. What's more, they're often happy to pay distributors hundreds of dollars to get it. Imagine the impact that could be made by a completely free (download a fully contained, easily installable package from the web) operating system that actually works pretty damn well too. Then I don't think it's unreasonable to see favourable reviews in magazines, leading to more technically minded non-geek users giving it a try, leading to less technically minded non-geek users trying it too.
tb100 wrote:
I am here because I thought BeOS had some great ideas. I am here because I think that Haiku is improving upon those ideas and will carry the OS in a good direction. I don't think that there'll be a revolution, but I do think that this is an exciting project.
I'm not here because I want to be part of a 100-strong community. I'm here because I think BeOS has a lot of great ideas, I think Haiku is a revolutionary project done from the ground up with the user in mind, and I really feel Haiku could bring about a revolution in the computer industry. And the fact that I said revolution twice in the same sentence should give you an idea of how excited I am by the possibilities.
Itās the reason that I contacted mphipps to donate my time to develop for this project. He hasnāt gotten back to me and thus Iāve moved onto other things. I do believe that this latter thing needs to be fixed before any revolutions happen, IMO of course.
tb100 wrote:
Indeed a misunderstanding. OBSD is primarily a server OS. I use it for my desktop because I'm more of a developer. In fact if X was able to use the TV out on my Radeon I would have no need for windows at all.
I think you misunderstood me. I'm aware that OBSD is technically a good, stable, secure operating system. But on visiting the website, it doesn't *appear* to be much of an alternative for normal desktop users. I accept that they don't claim to be an alternative for normal desktop windows users, but Haiku certainly aims to fall into that category.
tb100 wrote:
Which IMO and others doesn't exclude the possibility of a mascot. And you have still provided no convicing arguments that this is the case. You have only stated "this is what I beleive".
The most important ideas they need to get from their first contact with the Haiku universe (this page) must be elegant and professional.
tb100 wrote:
I was refering to Geico.
I don't think Mozilla is particularly sucessful in normal windows user circles - as I said FireFox is pushing itself as more a normal user alternative (with no mascot) and Netscape, the commercial version of moz which is much better known to non-geeks, also gets by without a mascot.
tb100 wrote:
Stand out yes, run the risk of looking like any other faceless corp, yes.
Finally, I like the fact that Haiku is different to other open source OS projects. *Not* having a mascot, but rather having a professional, elegant logo, combined with a professional, elegant website really makes Haiku stand out from the crowd.
tb100 wrote:
No there isn't any real one web page, but they all have tux there. Consistency is what people will know. If I see the penguin then I have the right page. And there is a reason for that penguin by the way.
Try to find the linux homepage; well there isn't really one, it seems to be scattered into hundreds of seperate projects around the net, all involving some penguin in a cartoon or other; weird.
tb100 wrote:
Your opinion it's strange, to OBSD, revenue, to the average user (my wife is one) cute and attractive.
Off to OBSD - strange looking mascot, very technically-heavy site clearly not aimed at normal users.
tb100 wrote:
Jumping the gun a little here aren't we?
Onto Haiku - slick design, elegant site and logo, simple download with an easy install process to get an entire OS up and running.
tb100 wrote:
To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.
I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.
You seem to be forgeting that for most users, computers are for work and thatās it. The others will use it for games which by nessessity is windows. The vaste minority use it for development to which because of the former two reasons scatters them across a multitude of platforms. Haiku has a long uphill battle to fight to get anywhere. Having something besides a leaf to have it stand out in the crowd would be benificial as long as it isnāt rediculus, which (again) is the reason for these threads.
Quote:
I agree that Mascot = Geeky.
Quote:To *you*. Normal users are not aware of lan parties and most like little cute cuddly toys. That being said I've never been to a lan party and I don't like cuddly toys, but the average user at least won't take that into consideration when choosing an OS, at least the mentally stable ones won't.... It seems clearly geeky to me.
Quote:
Again I agree that no mascot is a far better idea than any of the ones suggested so far.
tb100 wrote:To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.
I like all the ideas. Iāve seen some, come up with some.
But I forgot, we have one.
Moe. Matter of fact, we have at least two mascots. I assume the little avatar friend to moe is āgenkiā
Now you get it. Moe is pronounced āMOW-ayā
As in MAUI
As with all modern japanese mythology, all special physics apply. :-)))
If you donāt know what that meansā¦ well.
SigmaNunki wrote:
tb100 wrote:To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.
I beg your pardon?
SigmaNunki, are you and I reading the same thread here?
Either:
- You have failed to read what numerous people have taken the time to post in this thread; or
- You are an amnesiac; or
- You think that all others reading this thread are amnesiacs and will accept ā at face value as ātruthā ā your transparent and facile attempt to isolate Simon as the āonly one hereā voicing opposition to this āmascotā foolishnessā¦
Please permit me to reiterate for your benefit certain salient excerpts from a number of posts made earlier in this very thread, since this appears to be necessary at this sorry juncture. To wit:
+++
Doca wrote:
Why not a autumn leaf as the mascot? Far more concise than an animal or an abstract living form.
+++
Sikosis (Haiku Preferences Team Lead) wrote:
I tend to agree. I think the leaf is a pretty damn good logo / mascot.
+++
ashkarkm wrote:
A mascot is a mustā¦I think a leaf would do fineā¦
+++
Euan wrote (tongue in cheek):
Make it a gold plated leafā¦
+++
nitro wrote:
I donāt like mascots as an OS logo, I prefer an abstract logo or an object. The circle of leaves is great!
+++
Kev wrote:
Oh, I see, no mascot. Well, that works too. 
+++
Hugh wrote:
As for the icon and mascot - I would also strongly encourage an abstract approach that resembles or elaborates on the logo, like the icon, which is nice - itās really more mature and āadvancedā and would symbolise the individuality and originality of Haiku much better than some mundane image of whatever.
+++
Misza wrote:
http://www.imperialdoughnut.fsnet.co.uk/dl/wall/domokun.jpg
+++
Kurtis (Haiku Website Team Lead) wrote:
As of yet, the admin team has no official stance on the idea of a mascot. Once we can all agree on whether or not we want a mascot, we may end up doing something like this.
+++
Swami wrote:
Sorry, but I really think that a mascot is only bullshit. Haiku logo is perfect.
+++
olaf wrote:
I think the leaf idea is a great idea.
+++
thies wrote:
Oh come on. Does Windows have a mascot? Or MacOS? No. Only Linux has a fat penguin and BSD a dumb looking demon advertising for Converse. Look to the top of the page, a nice logo. Itās all which is needed. No childish cartoonish hummingbirds going ākawaii ^-^ā or big bad dragons. Keep it abstract like the current logo and you get the highest amount of people happy.
+++
BryanV wrote:
I will have uncontrollable urges to slit my throat if Haiku gets some dumb-ass āmascotā. Show me one successful, commercial, professional OS (closed source, with a real marketing department behind it) that has a mascot. Iām not kidding when I say this: Haiku gets some frackinā mascot, and Iām gone. No more BeOS. If I wanted a freakinā mascot, Iād be a linux zealot.
+++
Czeslaw (your humble servant) wrote:
Please, please: No mascot. No Walt Disneyesque degradations. No infantile cartoonish inanities. Please letās preserve our dignity, and simply enjoy the elegance and understated beauty of the superb graphics already developed and in use for the Haiku project. These artists (Stubear and Kurtis and associates) are professionals; their work reflects this. Letās honor it and not debase it. Would we paint a āclown smileā on Leonardoās Mona Lisa and call it an āimprovement for marketing appealā? Please, no. Letās have some respect, and self-respect.
+++
M wrote:
Iād be plain embarassed if we got a mascot - so you can count me in too Bryan! A symbol (ie logo) is fine, such as the leaf device already in use, in fact Iād say its essential for marketing. However, mascots are a gimmick for characterless and/or faceless systems - BeOS was neither, and nor will its children be. This subject has come up so many times and its just plain dumb, how many times have I cried on my keyboard as someone says lets have a Bee mascot or whateverā¦
+++
Czeslaw wrote:
ā¦[W]hoās to say that this is even a decision that properly falls within the purview of the ācommunityā at large, or rather the tiny subset of the community that happens to be aware of this one unfortunate forum thread? Has the Haiku admin team issued a public call for āmascot candidatesā? Did I miss this? (Didnāt anyone read Kurtisās earlier post that the admin team has not decided to develop a mascot for the platform?)
The ācommunityā is not creating Haiku; the Haiku development team and supporting teams are creating Haiku. Why are we ā here and now ā even discussing this ārebrandingā of somebody elseās labor of blood, sweat, and tears? This seems profoundly disrespectful to me.
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filmmaker wrote:
I would have to agree with those who feel that a mascot would cheapen the haiku projectā¦The current Haiku logo is very cool it has an Eames type of feel to it: very Modā¦very clean. Perfect as far as Iām concerned.
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anarcap wrote:
There has to be a happy medium (not necessarily a mascot but possibly a distinctive logo (I do like the current logo a lot, but Iām neither a graphic designer nor a marketing guy)) that can be used to not only promote Haiku, but also to help get a few dollars in the coffers.
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RikkiRockett wrote:
I recommend we stick with the circle of leaves.
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filmmaker wrote:
This [the circle of leaves] has my vote too. Simple, elegant, and beautiful.
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MYOB wrote:
I agree that Mascot = Geekyā¦Again I agree that no mascot is a far better idea than any of the ones suggested so far.
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Remember now?
Yours in the service of the sort of long-term memory that is required for sustained, fair-minded, polemical discourse,
Czeslaw
Ok, bit shorter post hopefully.
Thanks to Csezlaw for the summary of the anti comments.
For the pro-mascot people, remember we havenāt even got to the stage of deciding which mascot. The only agreement I remember seeing was in response to the bee suggestion, which as I have explained is a terrible image for the OS IMHO. I suspect a lot of people who are for a mascot in principle would dislike the one chosen, and prefer to have none at all. As thies said: "Keep it abstract like the current logo and you get the highest amount of people happy. "
Not really responding to many mascot comments, just to some general OS ones (sorry to be off-topic):
SigmaNunki wrote:
I disagree completely about why linux hasn't had an influx of users. It's because of the attitude - developers don't have an issue with distributing apps in source form only, and expecting people to build it themselves. There seems no attempt to bring consistency across the different projects that make up the operating system - apps require a certain kernel version, certain X-windows, loads of depenencies, a bit of admin as root to set up, a few corrections to get it to compile on your particular set up, etc, etc. Give people an alternative that actually has been created with them in mind, and that actually works better than Windows, and we might see a different picture.
Linux has been waiting for this [influx of non-geek users] as well for a long time. It hasn't happened because of windows massive advertising campain along with professional certs, etc.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I'm a typical geek and I don't want to try linux. I hate the attitude I mentioned above - I might do some development, but I'm a user at heart.
They are the typical user and they don't want to even try linux, enough said.
SigmaNunki wrote:
It's an open source project, that happens. Hundreds of people send emails, say "I want to help" and then do nothing. Michael has (rightly) decided it's not worth spending time replying individually giving people tasks and such. The people who are going to be commited devs to the project would be able to read the FAQ about how to contribute. Contact the team lead you're interested in, pick a task that needs doing, and write some code. No offense intended - I have also said that I will help out, and not done anything. It's a common problem, but I certainly don't blame Michael for me not contributing anything real to the project. It's all my own fault.
I am here because I thought BeOS had some great ideas. I am here because I think that Haiku is improving upon those ideas and will carry the OS in a good direction. I don't think that there'll be a revolution, but I do think that this is an exciting project.Itās the reason that I contacted mphipps to donate my time to develop for this project. He hasnāt gotten back to me and thus Iāve moved onto other things. I do believe that this latter thing needs to be fixed before any revolutions happen, IMO of course.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I've still yet to see a professional mascot for a software product. Maybe it's possible. I think it's undoubtable that a mascot creates more strong feeling in people than a logo (some will like it, some will hate it), and if you're aiming to put as few people off as possible, you don't want people to imediately hate the first image they see regarding your product.
tb100 wrote:Which IMO and others doesn't exclude the possibility of a mascot. And you have still provided no convicing arguments that this is the case. You have only stated "this is what I beleive".The most important ideas they need to get from their first contact with the Haiku universe (this page) must be elegant and professional.
SigmaNunki wrote:
Ah right. Needed google to tell me who they were, don't have them in the UK. Maybe it helps them to portray an image of having friendly advisors on hand, I dunno. At least it's directly related to their name so it's obvious why that animal was chosen.
I was refering to Geico.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I think your attitude towards windows' dominance is quite narrow minded. I work in an office with people who have switched OSes more times than they care to remember. It's true that there's many more computers in many more places than in the days of VAX, but there are still huge markets pretty much untouched by computers (in the developing world especially). Games are fairly portable by nature (look at the variety of consoles and platforms they run on), they are only tied to windows for market reasons. And markets change.
You seem to be forgeting that for most users, computers are for work and that's it. The others will use it for games which by nessessity is windows.
Simon
gtada wrote:
A leaf isn't a mascot IMHO (or at least a good one). I do like the idea of the tanuki... not a badger, not a racoon, but an "atypical species of dog that can grow up to 60 cm. in length, with distinctive stripes of black fur under its eyes." With a magical leaf, the tanuki can shape-shift. It's a popular figure in Japanese lore, and they're rather cute. I wouldn't mind drawing up a few vector pieces. I'll post them when I'm done.
After doing some research on the tanuki, my answer would be no based on the information from such sites as http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tanuki.shtml
Since tanuki are considered mischievous creatures which resort to deception, I do not believe this would be an appropriate mascot for haiku at all.
Czeslaw wrote:
What I meant was that he was the only one that was really driving it home. And for the past number of days it was myself and him arguing the point. One can make some assumption from that. To the rest of your post, I will not lower myself to reply.
SigmaNunki wrote:tb100 wrote:To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.I beg your pardon?
SigmaNunki, are you and I reading the same thread here?
SigmaNunki wrote:
Czeslaw wrote:What I meant was that he was the only one that was really driving it home. And for the past number of days it was myself and him arguing the point. One can make some assumption from that. To the rest of your post, I will not lower myself to reply.SigmaNunki wrote:tb100 wrote:To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.I think we should be aiming for professionalism, and that to me means no mascot.I beg your pardon?
SigmaNunki, are you and I reading the same thread here?
Iāll drive it home as well
Mascot = kiddy, unprofessional, geeky
How come Mozilla never got accepted among businesses, OEMs, etc as an IE replacement but Firefox is being accepted, whilst in beta
Firefox has a professional image. Mozilla has a stupid interface, in-jokes (look for about:kitchensink in older builds), and a cruddy dumb mascot.
Do professional Linux distros like Novell SuSE or Mandrake have a stupid fluffy Tux around? No, they donāt
Any software product which appeals above a geeky market doesnāt have a mascot. And donāt bring in OpenBSD, as you need to be a geek to even install that.
tb100 wrote:
There will only be one choosen if the majority want a particular one. If a debate about which one goes on for an extended period of time then it'll adventually be dropped.
Ok, bit shorter post hopefully.Thanks to Csezlaw for the summary of the anti comments.
For the pro-mascot people, remember we havenāt even got to the stage of deciding which mascot. The only agreement I remember seeing was in response to the bee suggestion, which as I have explained is a terrible image for the OS IMHO. I suspect a lot of people who are for a mascot in principle would dislike the one chosen, and prefer to have none at all. As thies said: "Keep it abstract like the current logo and you get the highest amount of people happy. "
tb100 wrote:
All the linux apps, etc that I've seen/used have come in source for but also in binary form. Ever hear of an rpm? How about a deb? These also come in a source variety but the default is binary.
SigmaNunki wrote:I disagree completely about why linux hasn't had an influx of users. It's because of the attitude - developers don't have an issue with distributing apps in source form only, and expecting people to build it themselves. There seems no attempt to bring consistency across the different projects that make up the operating system - apps require a certain kernel version, certain X-windows, loads of depenencies, a bit of admin as root to set up, a few corrections to get it to compile on your particular set up, etc, etc. Give people an alternative that actually has been created with them in mind, and that actually works better than Windows, and we might see a different picture.Linux has been waiting for this [influx of non-geek users] as well for a long time. It hasn't happened because of windows massive advertising campain along with professional certs, etc.
Redhat, Mandrake, etc come with a utility to install programs and there dependancies are automatically installed along with the program.
Iāve seen no apps that require a certain kernel version, just library version which the mentioned install utilities can upgrade with a click of a button. And what certain X-windows? What admin setup? Iāve rarely changed any of the defaults on something that was ājust an app.ā If fact I canāt remember doing so.
tb100 wrote:
Point missed. They don't want to move from windows, which is the same as any other windows person that I've met. They think it's just a waste of time and that they could be working during that time instead of learning a new OS.
SigmaNunki wrote:I'm a typical geek and I don't want to try linux. I hate the attitude I mentioned above - I might do some development, but I'm a user at heart.They are the typical user and they don't want to even try linux, enough said.
I donāt remember mentioning such an attitude. Did you?
tb100 wrote:
What I sent was a message about something legal about a project idea that I had. I didn't want to put this project in jepordy so I asked someone in charge and mphipps said no thanks, we don't want it anyway. My reply was, firstly a defense of backward compat, and secondly, I thought of these programs to write but they have either been turned down or already done/being done, where do you want me. IMO, this is an acceptible request. Someone willing to work that has given examples of things that (s)he was thinking of doing wants something to do. The request didn't even get a reply. This is something, IMO, that is unacceptable for a lead to do.
SigmaNunki wrote:It's an open source project, that happens. Hundreds of people send emails, say "I want to help" and then do nothing. Michael has (rightly) decided it's not worth spending time replying individually giving people tasks and such. The people who are going to be commited devs to the project would be able to read the FAQ about how to contribute. Contact the team lead you're interested in, pick a task that needs doing, and write some code. No offense intended - I have also said that I will help out, and not done anything. It's a common problem, but I certainly don't blame Michael for me not contributing anything real to the project. It's all my own fault.I am here because I thought BeOS had some great ideas. I am here because I think that Haiku is improving upon those ideas and will carry the OS in a good direction. I don't think that there'll be a revolution, but I do think that this is an exciting project.Itās the reason that I contacted mphipps to donate my time to develop for this project. He hasnāt gotten back to me and thus Iāve moved onto other things. I do believe that this latter thing needs to be fixed before any revolutions happen, IMO of course.
And if they didnāt want to answer or get these emails then they should (itās been mentioned in another thread) put these things that they want done, but are a low priority on a web page somewhere for those of us to pick up. Send code when completed a significant portion is done to say āHey, Iām serious hereā and then move on from there. The ignoring thing, IMO, deters potential developers and isnāt exactly the most mature thing to do.
tb100 wrote:
You still seem to be going along this unfounded route that, in the general population, people are put off by mascots. The "normal people" (read: non-techie) that I know all love tux/puffy/etc. It is the average person that should be aimed at (as you yourself have said) and if they like it then why not?
SigmaNunki wrote:I've still yet to see a professional mascot for a software product. Maybe it's possible. I think it's undoubtable that a mascot creates more strong feeling in people than a logo (some will like it, some will hate it), and if you're aiming to put as few people off as possible, you don't want people to imediately hate the first image they see regarding your product.tb100 wrote:Which IMO and others doesn't exclude the possibility of a mascot. And you have still provided no convicing arguments that this is the case. You have only stated "this is what I beleive".The most important ideas they need to get from their first contact with the Haiku universe (this page) must be elegant and professional.
And people donāt think too much about these things. If they see a cute little bee then theyāll think, what a cute little bee. They wonāt think, oh gee, those things sting people/anoy poeople and then die straight away. Perhapse I wonāt try this OS as that must be true about it as well. Again, theyāll just think, what a cute little bee.
That being said, although I do like the idea of the bee, but it doesnāt fit the current OS name. Haiku and a bee donāt really fit. Something else must be thought of, which IMO, hasnāt surfaced yet (still waiting for some pics that people have promised). But this is no reason not to stop brainstorming.
tb100 wrote:
This is what I'm getting at above, there must be a relation.
SigmaNunki wrote:Ah right. Needed google to tell me who they were, don't have them in the UK. Maybe it helps them to portray an image of having friendly advisors on hand, I dunno. At least it's directly related to their name so it's obvious why that animal was chosen.I was refering to Geico.
tb100 wrote:
Actually, I take a realist point of view. People are lazy by nature and will stick to what works, period. Even if it doesn't work well, it still works, therefore there is no reason to change. Every non-techie that I know thinks this way (and with the large sample that I have and there common attitude vs I have it wrong = statisitcal improbability). This is the reason why M$ has kept a monopoly on the market for so long. They know where people's thresholds are for changing and they make it just a nudge better than that.
SigmaNunki wrote:I think your attitude towards windows' dominance is quite narrow minded. I work in an office with people who have switched OSes more times than they care to remember. It's true that there's many more computers in many more places than in the days of VAX, but there are still huge markets pretty much untouched by computers (in the developing world especially).You seem to be forgeting that for most users, computers are for work and that's it. The others will use it for games which by nessessity is windows.
tb100 wrote:
Games are fairly portable by nature (look at the variety of consoles and platforms they run on), they are only tied to windows for market reasons. And markets change.Simon
Games are not portable. Most of them are made using directx which is M$ only. The others use the propriatary API of that particular console. The only API that Iāve run across that is portable is the SDL. Try to find a commercial game that uses that. Current games are coded on windows for windows period. And why do you think that they have games out there for both windows and xbox, because they use the same API. Instant developer community.
The engine (physics, map loading, etc) may be made somewhat protable, but graphics engines are not. It either costs a lot of time to create an engine or a lot of money to license one. And the only reason why companies are moving toward consol development is that PC games are too easy to crack and copy. Itās far more difficult to pirate console games, mod chips and all.
SigmaNunki wrote:
I am here because I thought BeOS had some great ideas. I am here because I think that Haiku is improving upon those ideas and will carry the OS in a good direction. I don't think that there'll be a revolution, but I do think that this is an exciting project.Itās the reason that I contacted mphipps to donate my time to develop for this project. He hasnāt gotten back to me and thus Iāve moved onto other things.
mphipps is always incredibly busy, and unless you want to work on the screensaver kit or virtual memory, the wrong person to contact.
Contact the team lead instead.
SigmaNunki wrote:
tb100 wrote:Games are fairly portable by nature (look at the variety of consoles and platforms they run on), they are only tied to windows for market reasons. And markets change.Simon
Games are not portable. Most of them are made using directx which is M$ only. The others use the propriatary API of that particular console. The only API that Iāve run across that is portable is the SDL. Try to find a commercial game that uses that. Current games are coded on windows for windows period. And why do you think that they have games out there for both windows and xbox, because they use the same API. Instant developer community.The engine (physics, map loading, etc) may be made somewhat protable, but graphics engines are not. It either costs a lot of time to create an engine or a lot of money to license one. And the only reason why companies are moving toward consol development is that PC games are too easy to crack and copy. Itās far more difficult to pirate console games, mod chips and all.
Firstly, the biggest selling FPS games around all use OpenGL. Which is highly portable (Iām referring to id games and the countless games that use id engines)
Secondly, SDL versions of a huge number of current and/or recent commercial games exist, namely Sim City 3000, Civ:CTP and Civ:CTP2, etc. Reason being that SDL is 3D accelerated on Linux and other platforms (including Windows), and fairly easy to code for.
Games are way way way more portable than, say, an office suite. Thats why BeOS has Worms Armegeddon, Civ:CTP (non-SDL), Quake 1, Quake II, etc; but no OpenOffice.
Iād also invite you to look at OpenTTD, a project Iām involved in, to see how easy it actually is to port a games graphics engine. OpenTTD is no crummy NES type game, its a relatively advanced semi-isometric engine, from 1995 I admit. But the SDL version and the SkyOS native version didnāt require much work to port, and the (semi-finished, on my HDD only) BeOS native graphics required feck all work.