The God, Haiku and the BSD Daemons

Hello, my name is Eugenijus-Jonas, or Eugene-John in English. I'm live in Vilnius, Lithuania. I'm a catholic.
Some months ago I had tried Haiku and found it very attractive. I even wanted to install it as my desktop, but when next version had not booted from USB flash, I has decided to wait. But I am liking it and have hope, that in some days (not so quick of course) it would can be most widespread desktop OS on the market.
But exist some disturbance - its dependence on BSD. Is it possible to change driver subsystem to Linux for example or something you'd like (I'm not a programmer)? Fact is that mascot of all BSD's is the Beastie, or the Daemon, or the Devil, and they (BSD's community) depend on Him and He flaw all business. I think it is not a problem, when some drivers are in other licence or even binary form - just no BSD, no Devil.

And another question. Is it possible to include in Haiku philosophy, that you believe in God?
What do you (community) think about it?

Eugenijus-Jonas.

As much as I can understand your dislike for the FreeBSD mascot, I’m of the opinion that it isn’t a compelling enough reason not to use that code. In the case of Linux, the license for the code is much less permissive for use in Haiku (GPL puts some additional restrictions on developers who use code). BSD code is rather useful, considering, and in some cases it is even simpler to use than Linux code. You are also specifically referring to FreeBSD, which is only a single BSD distro. There is also OpenBSD, NetBSD, and DragonflyBSD which all have very different mascots. In the end, we are not a BSD, so I don’t see any reason for concern.

AFAIK, Haiku doesn’t currently align itself with any specific religion, as we happen to have community members and contributors from all parts of the world, and likely of many different (and possibly conflicting) religions. It would therefore be in our best interest to avoid this, IMO.

Eugenijus-Jonas: LOL! Are you serious…? Why the heck would we in any way try to make associations to “god” in any part of Haiku? Let me tell you that, as I strongly believe that religion is one of the big evils of this world, where the Axis of Evil (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) plays a big part in destroying our world, I could get very offended if you used any religious references in a positive light. And to go as far as removing code from a project that is very useful to us, and is licensed with a compatible license, cuz you don’t like the logo, is just going overboard. Now I do not actually get that super offended just by seeing something I’m opposed to, but I could. Also, no matter how sick it is, I can usually appreciate humour, so why can’t you?

No real reason to get abusive - although I realize this can be a heavily controversial topic.

Eugenijus-Jonas-

I don’t speak with authority for the Haiku community, but I’m reasonably certain that the inclusion of code from BSD and its related projects does not mean any association with demons. In fact, I’m sure the FreeBSD folks intend their mascot to be humorous, not offensive.

I think it would be a mistake for an operating system to align itself with any particular religious belief. I’ll bet the developers and supporters of Haiku are part of all different religions (and I’ll bet there are atheists involved too). It would be counterproductive to exclude anybody from contributing to (and using) Haiku.

I’m not a developer, but I have donated money to Haiku. Like you, I am Catholic. I am certain that the use of BSD code in Haiku (as opposed to Linux code) is made for technical and licensing reasons alone. It doesn’t mean that Haiku has any association with BSD (or FreeBSD, or the ‘Beastie’ mascot)…and the FreeBSD folks don’t intend for ‘Beastie’ to be a religous statement anyway.

God bless you; enjoy Haiku!

Denise-- I respect your view on this (and, in fact, agree that Haiku should not take any religious position…see my other comment).

Having said that, I hope that you will consider toning down your rhetoric. Lots of us religious people (Christian [Catholic] in my case) honestly try to do good in the world. I’m not going to get ‘super offended’ at you referring to my faith, which I take very seriously, as part of an ‘Axis of Evil’, but many others would.

I can respect that you have intelligently chosen what to believe in and what not to believe in; I hope you will extend me and my fellow believers (of all faiths) the same courtesy.

No real reason to get abusive - although I realize this can be a heavily controversial topic.[/quote]

[quote=achmafooma]Denise-- I respect your view on this (and, in fact, agree that Haiku should not take any religious position…see my other comment).

Having said that, I hope that you will consider toning down your rhetoric. Lots of us religious people (Christian [Catholic] in my case) honestly try to do good in the world. I’m not going to get ‘super offended’ at you referring to my faith, which I take very seriously, as part of an ‘Axis of Evil’, but many others would.

I can respect that you have intelligently chosen what to believe in and what not to believe in; I hope you will extend me and my fellow believers (of all faiths) the same courtesy.[/quote]

Actually, I thought it was appropriate considering how he started this topic. A catholic comes around and tells us that all of BSD is evil cuz of a logo, and that we must remove all references to it, and then to make our point stronger, tell everyone that it is “part of the Haiku philosophy to believe in God”. I didn’t intend to start a real debate on religion; if that was it, then what I said would’ve been quite mild in fact… My main issue in this topic was rather how far he actually went with something, in my opinion, rather neutral. It sounded almost fanatic.

I’ll try to make myself more clear. No matter what stance I have on religion, I would not boycott a perfectly fine open source project cuz it has an unserious Jesus-like logo. In the same way, I do not care whether it has a Lucifer-like logo either, and I think I should be able to ask you to care as little as I do about it.

While it may sound fanatic, I don’t believe it was as bad as your portray it. I can recognize that in some parts of the world, Catholicism is stronger than in others. Sometimes when you live in an area like this, it’s hard to imagine that the world elsewhere can be so vastly different. I think, that if you classified the original message as “fanatic”, then at least he was quite polite about it. The response you produced, on the other hand, was somewhat harsh, and, IMO, even fanatical in the opposite direction.

Regardless of our religious beliefs, there’s no real reason to mock others on a public forum about Haiku.

Urias: I pretty much completely disagree. I don’t think being polite about it changes the point too much. If someone tells me to “pass away” rather than to “die”, I wouldn’t thank the person for “at least being polite about it”. Ok, this was a rather extreme example, but you should be able to see the point. And besides, my main target was still not his religion, nor him personally, but simply the fanaticism I found in telling us that BSD is evil cuz of an unserious logo. I can see though that as a religious person yourself, you may find religion much more important than BSD (I may be wrong though), and thus you may think I am going overboard, but if that’s your case then that’s still your opinion. Ok, I guess I should stop here before everyone gets seriously mad at me… I’m good at pissing people off…

Interesting conclusion you drew there :wink: You are, of course, wrong.

Actually Haiku is already some sort of a religion… Peace and code ! :wink:

The problem is the chose of words.

For somebody MS Windows therm “Wizard” would be offensive, therefore, they name it “Master” because it has nothing to do with black magic. For others, BSD therm “Daemon” is offensive, they name it “Service”, because it has nothing to do with Devil. FreeBSD mascot was chosen considering the services running on it. NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD (nothing to do with “Dragon”) have neutral mascots. AFAIK, FreeBSD recently changed its mascot in order to be more neutral.

Haiku’s philosophy is inspired from Japanese poetry Haiku - small and expressive.

BTW, I’m also christian.

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Actually, I think that may have been NetBSD - which now has a rather innocent looking “flag” logo.

I believe the FreeBSD “Beastie” mascot was actually inspired by the acronym BSD (if you say it quickly, it sounds like “Beastie”)

Use of the term “daemon” was probably because they loosely represent “dieties” that sit in the background and make things happy automatically when they’re supposed to. In Haiku these are called “servers”, with the exception of some ported processes from elsewhere (ftpd, telnetd, sshd). Even Linux has daemons (since it’s a common term used in most unix-y OSes).

The mascot of FreeBSD is a daemon, not demon. The difference is: demons are evil, daemons are not.

As I know, you are keeping up-to-date some part of Haiku code with FreeBSD. So, you depend on them.

You can no align to anybody/anything, but all is much simpler: if you don’t belong to God, you go to Devil earlier or later. You use their work and even don’t understand what is really going on. The Beastie (or BSD-Daemon) is not just the logo, it is the mascot!

Ok. You are free to choose where and with who you want to go. Why have I written this thread? There are many communities, who are belong to Devil and AFAIK are no OS developers and users community, who is belong to God. I am searching such a community. I am asking you. You can be first. Why not? God is Love and I want to be in love and you can be. Most biggest things in the world is done with God and with love. There is an example - United States of America. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust . (To live with such motto is very hard, of course.) I asked NetBSD community, may they want to change, but they even did not understand what I was talking about.

If you think, that BSD and their Devils are more important than God and love, probably I got into the wrong place. But it is the answer too.

Synonym of religion is belief. You can believe in God, in Devil or in yourself. I believe, that without God love is impossible, that love is basis of our life and of the whole University. Denis Purple also is very religious person - he strongly believe that all is Evil, except him of course :) .

So, what about love?

Eugenijus-Jonas.

This thread is off-topic and unlikely to go anywhere productive, so we are locking it.