The Devil is in the Kitchen


#1

[I’m editing this so maybe I can get rid of theeternal popup!!]
t’s just been announced that Microsoft is buying Github! Should we be worried? I mean one can never forgive Bill for scuttling BeOS.
Official announcement:


and:


#2

No, we shouldn’t be worried. Microsoft is a big contributor to open source, are invested in git and GitHub. They’re the biggest contributor on GitHub already. Visual Studio Code is built on top of GitHub’s Electron, etc.


#3

Before this, Github was already a closed source system and could make decisions behind our back. So, we should still be worried, but not more than before :slight_smile: .

After being hosted on sourceforge, then BerliOS, some people in Haiku (who were already there back then) know that it is not very wise to let a 3rd party handle our sourcecode hosting. Which is why we now run our own git server (since we switched to git). So on this side, we are safe :slight_smile:

There are a few projects hosted by Haiku on Github (Mesa and WebKit ports, for example), but we could easily move these elsewhere (as we use just the git repos, and not the issue tracker or anything else from github).

HaikuArchives and HaikuPorts are probably a bit more involved, but there is no need to run away screaming from GitHub at the moment.


#4

It would be nice to have NodeJS and Electron working on Haiku…


#5

Patches welcome.
:slight_smile:


#6

Yay, apps larger than the complete OS itself! Sounds amazing :stuck_out_tongue:


#7

They are kinda a fat apps :slight_smile: - I agree, but for example on my Mac, WebStorm (Java) takes up 492 MB while VS Code (Electron) takes only half :slight_smile: at 202MB and is much faster (XCode is an unbelievable 10.5 GB)

  • wonder why Electron apps can’t share the core V8/CFE libs ?

#8

About what’s happened with Github being acquired: I have to agree that Microsoft in anything, especially after what happened to the BeOS, scares me.


#9

Static linking is the new black, boundled runtime is the new grey and dependency-management is the new orange.


#10

I’m with you: https://birdhouse.org/beos/byte/30-bootloader/


#11

Well you’ve already got BeWindow in the APIs. So just add BeEmbrace, BeExtend, and BeExtinguish to that :slight_smile:


#12

That was 20 years ago. Today’s Microsoft is a quite different company.

But yes, it was a bad idea to put all your code in Github hands (a for profit company doing closed source tools and selling them as a service), and it is still a bad idea to put it in Microsoft hands now. Go find an hosting company that at least open source its tools, or self-host if you can.


#13

Well thats nothing strange. I remember times, when my Windows 95 took 150MB, and Baldurs Gate about 1500MB.


#14

Until I see true evidence of that change, and not just subsystems, hypervisors, and the like — but real commitment to open source, like Microsoft natively allowing Linux (and others like Haiku, ideally) to dual-boot, porting Office over, and allowing either UWP or even legacy win32 apps to run with an official layer, or really anything of value, I still will see Microsoft for what they were… and maybe still are.

They were a good part in monopolizing desktop x86 and killing Be. And they tried hard with Nokia and Netscape. And RealPlayer with WMP. And under Ballmer, called Linux cancer and did a few anti-OpenOffice ads. Extending themselves into open source may be all modern-day necessity and protocoled, PC (pardon the pun) kindness, or it could be a nefarious ploy to reign supreme by proxy. Only time and history will be the judge of their ‘soul’.


#15

1841 projects on github is not enough evidence for you. Ok then.


#16

Sorry, no.

If you write “with love” while holding a loaded gun behind your back doesn’t infuse any trust.

Besides you know how war works: Divide and Conquer. Get into the middle of an opponent then enforce splitting tactics to drive it apart. As mentioned above I still wait to see “real” proof they changed their agenda. Up until then I won’t stand in front of them without a bullet proof vest on :stuck_out_tongue:


#17

I don’t doubt Microsoft has either contributed to or started various projects, and as I mentioned, there is significant work in terms of subsystems, hypervisors and the like they’ve done. And it’s a start — but is it for the right reason? There’s an array of stuff Microsoft has worked on, (such as cloud computing improvements, varied libraries, VS components, etc.). But again, where are the true gestures of friendship that would end the rivalry? Where is the support that allows Windows programs (legacy or Modern) or Office to run? Even for Ubuntu or Fedora, there is no native Office support; the browser is not adequate. And UEFI requirements will affect everyone in 2020 adversely, except of course, Microsoft. This is relevant because even though Microsoft != SB, they are a large part of what OEMs choose. Only Windows, and the Big Linuxes like RHEL and Canonical are guaranteed to survive.

Unlike everything I’ve noticed with Haiku, I personally don’t measure anyone’s merit by the LOC or the number of projects they have either forked or created, but by their history, intention, and purpose. Until significant proof that Microsoft has truly changed, such as either creating a dual-boot method, or open sourcing their boot loader, or even anything else the free software world has been longing for — like a win32 support layer — becomes reality, then I’ll humbly (and very, happily gratefully) admit that this once ‘bad’ company has changed. The only thing I have noticed is that ReactOS continues to survive, and the attacks on Linux have stopped.

Love is not caring for yourself, but your neighbor. And this is the only principle I would hold anyone from Apple to Microsoft to Google to. For example, I love Apple — but they’re not perfect either. But at least we have contributions to WebKit, and CUPS. But I also consider how the iPad and their mobiles are locked down to the hot place, and the iMac Pro has Secure Boot on it too.

My point is until the day comes that Microsoft is willing to show the battle has truly come to a wonderful end by bridging their technologies to us, all I can mention, and advise to all friends of open source software is to watch and be vigilant. I do not think the war has ended. Hosting projects on Github doesn’t constitute a truce to me.


#18

There may not be Office yet, but VS Code is running just fine on Linux:

I guess it makes sense to start with the developer tools, and then build from there.

Also, it is important to remember that Microsoft is a large company, and some branches are more or less independant. I think this is the case for Office, so it may take some time before the company culture changes everywhere.

There is also WSL, which is a compatibility layer in the other direction - getting Linux apps to run on Windows. Maybe the reverse will soon be possible too, who knows?


#19

Simply a wolf in sheep’s clothing :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#20

I think in quoting VS and WSL as examples, you’re right in that they are contributing something — but you’re also failing to see the point. Microsoft needs to ensure the world they do not want Windows to run it. When the new UEFI requirements come, will Haiku boot on it? Will Redox? OpenIndiana? Heck, even smaller Linux systems, like Slackware or Void?

Microsoft can say they love Linux all day, but the real challenge is in proving they want coexistence. They need to either start proving they care by porting major stuff like Office and a program layer, or otherwise (and even better), ensure that more than shim-enabled distributions like RHEL/Fedora can boot on x64 hardware. I view Microsoft like the Borg or the Cylons, honestly. I know everyone has their own opinion, and I respect yours — but I think it’s wise to watch what Microsoft is doing. Their history speaks for itself. I hope this feeling is wrong, and that they have changed. It’s just too soon to tell.