[SOLVED] What happened to PoorMan?

[nephele]

I don’t understand this reasoning. So far the only argument I’ve heard is that “It should match the documentation”, that is fair on it’s own, but suggests you should not translate the documentation either.

I think the other side wins very clearly: Some people don’t speak english. period.
It literally does not matter what intention you had or wordplay for the application name, those users will not be able to use it.

Applications on windows do it isn’t really an argument, because they face the exact same issue, Firefox, Chrome, Edge are perfect examples. Edge especially. Many people I’ve known that are older will try to run “Internet explorer” because it actually sais what it does, and not “Edge”.
Those users can only use these nondescriptive app names because they have been trained by their relatives or more tech savy people to click on the right thing. And that usually isn’t even “Chrome” but “The thing right of the start menu”.

[blu.256]

I think better to stick with the current variant “Εξυπηρετητής Ιστού PoorMan”. After all, people don’t translate Firefox as “Φλεγόμενη αλεπού”

[Nexus-6]

IMHO app names should not be translated and should not be representative of their purpose. Developers choose a name for various reasons and seldom it has to do with the purpose of an application.
There may be some exceptions, though. In MacOS for example, Calendar, Notes and Weather are translated. I think this is an edge case that applies to built-in utilities.
It would be better to provide a thorough description in the documentation and in Haiku Depot if applicable.
Just my two cents.

[blu.256]

The simple naming of built-in applications makes a good point. It is simple to understand for end users and we see it implemented in most desktops today.

Having a distinct name for your application does make sense when you want to have a distinct “brand image” or something (e.g. the case for web browsers). Built-in apps should probably have simple names.

I’m not advocating for change here, it’s not up to me to make such a decision. It’s just an observation about application naming for applications which are part of the system. “Mail” nails this, “PoorMan” does not. On the other hand, I can’t possibly imagine Web+, Pe or HaikuDepot being called anything else

[RogFanther]

The name comes from a common english expression. For other languages, it can be treated as just a name. Same as we do not try to translate Google Chrome or facebook, and just use they as names.

The misunderstanding was just due to the greek translation removing the name . If it can be changed to PoorMan Web Server ( or Web Server PoorMan, depending on the correct grammatical structure of greek language ) it solves the problem and lets the sofware purpose clear, just that.

[BlueSky]

@nephele

don’t understand this reasoning. So far the only argument I’ve heard is that “It should match the documentation”, that is fair on it’s own, but suggests you should not translate the documentation either.

I´m not sure if you were referring to my comment, but anyway please note that I didn´t say any of these things . Sorry if I didn´t manage to express myself clearly

@nephele

I think the other side wins very clearly: Some people don’t speak english. period.
It literally does not matter what intention you had or wordplay for the application name, those users will not be able to use it.

What? I have to understand what the name of the application means to be able to use it? Why?
Take the native Haiku video editor called Medo for example. Now, I know that it refers to some kind of bear in slavic languages because the author explained it in the announcement posting. But with or without that information, I just have to make a mental note in my mind that Medo = video editor. I think I´m very well capable of that and I expect most other users to be too. And if not, someone can still put a link on the desktop and call it whatever they want.

[nephele]

Applications having nonsensical names is no excuse for foregoing translations.

There is no reason why the web server has to be named poorman, just make a mental note is the sam condescending attitude of “should have read the manual lol”

Haiku shouldn’t be a system where you need to consult a manual so you can understand all the nonsensical names in applications/ in a foreign language for anyone.

[Starcrasher]

If the app is in the right menu category, with eventually a tooltip that is a short description in your language you find your app whatever the name. But nobody wants another thread about that…

[zuMi]

Yep, there is that option that allows you to avoid translating app and folder names, but in many translatable strings those have no placeholders, so I suppose that option may be partially ineffective or misleading, with app and folder names not translated within the Desktop or Deskbar’s menu, but translated in dialogues and alerts

[PulkoMandy]

@nephele

I think the other side wins very clearly: Some people don’t speak english. period.

There is a cultural element to this as well, which is why there is so deep disagreement. It is hard to see each others viewpoint.

For example in France, there are people who don’t speak english very well. If you go to see a movie, you will usually get a French dub with profesionnal voice actors (it is possible to get the english version with subtitles as well). But, the movies titles are not translated. Sometimes they are different from the original english ones, but still in english.

We can have a lot of fun discovering Canadian French versions of these movies, where they take great care of translating the title to French. This sounds a bit ridiculous to us.

As a result of this:

• It is up to each translation team to decide how they translate application names, if at all
• There will be some disagreement in each language community, which is why we have a checkbox in locale preferences to force the OS to still use non-translated names. Personally it is the first setting I’ll change when making a new Haiku install, but it seems important to have something that works by default for non-English speakers.

[ubu]

What about “PoorMan Webserver”
In this case Webserver can be translated and the function is easily recognizeable an PoorMan is a brandmname remains untranslated and recognizeable.

[camtaf]

Funny names aside - Haiku is a quite straight forward operating system, so why not be brave & have a straight forward menu that actually has names that represent function - editor, web browser, email, etc.
The actual programs can keep their ‘stupid’ names, but the menu will be very usable to a newbie - & possibly be a great advantage to recruiting new, possibly computer illiterate, users to Haiku.

[shaka444]

We also have lighttpd web server that works very well in Haiku

[octoplex]

@PulkoMandy

BeOS was often not fully serious like this, maybe as a way to stand out from the other systems.

Exactly this. PoorMan was meant to be funny for the user. This software emerged from the playful-spirit in which BeOS was originally designed. Back then, it was a different era: computer programmers were allowed to be funny. Good computers made us laugh.

Perhaps that era will return.

Pictured above is the original BeOS icon for the app. Observe the small details: The ‘poor man’ even has his pockets turned out. He’s that poor.

The PoorMan icon and the app were an ‘amusing’ reference to the notion that running your own web-server on your home-computer was the ‘poor man’ alternative to commercial hosting.

Notably, in the age of mass-censorship, self-hosting doesn’t look like the ‘poor man’ option today. More like the Clever Man option…

In summary: Renaming ‘PoorMan’ would deprive the next generation of Haiku users. These users would never know the delight of discovering the history of the PoorMan software and BeOS.

Also, consider this: Haiku itself is a word of mysterious origins to many non-Japanese speakers. But, just as we have grasped the meaning of “Haiku” (a form of Japanese verse) I’m sure that Japanese-users (for example) will grasp the meaning of “PoorMan”. I think it should keep its name for all eternity.

TL;DR: Nobody ever laughed at an app called “Web Server”.

[BlueSky]

@octoplex

Back then, it was a different era: computer programmers were allowed to be funny. Good computers made us laugh.

Thanks a lot for mentioning this. Good to see that there’s at least a few people in the community that think humor is important.

@octoplex

Perhaps that era will return.

I’d like to think it never completely ended. Let’s keep up the spirit of twisted and quirky humor.

[Begasus]

There’s also nginx in the depot. (works pretty well … nginx hosted at ImgBB — ImgBB )

[chris_on_linux]

You’re not wrong. Mozilla Firefox is translated to “Περιηγητής Mozilla Firefox”. This is also the case with other translated pieces of software.

[Handmaus]

The useful part of a name is that it doesn’t change, so that it lets you find the thing again, whatever the context, and, in the context of communication, that it lets various persons know that they are talking about the same thing.

The useful part of translating something is that the translated result is meaningful. If it is not, is just a different arbitrary set of words just for the sake of it.

I think a program’s name should be treated as that, a name, an identifier, and never be changed (or with very few exceptions for basic utilities like ‘calculator’ or ‘image viewer’). Even if the words used to construct the name are potentially translatable, because it creates more problems than it solves.

If not, do we need to translate Krita into ‘Chalk’ or ‘Crayon’ for the english version?

A solution to have more descriptive names while also maintaining the consistency between translations will be, as discussed, to simply establish a naming convention that includes a short description after the name, say, 1 to 4 words, declaring the function of the program:

NameOfApp - function-of-the-program

This way the translators can concentrate on translating this description and not having to deal with the name itself.
(Though that will only be correctly visible in list view. In icon view it will get truncated when the name+description are both a bit long, limiting the usefulness to find something easily just by looking around.)

A bit more involved solution can be to implement a way to show by default this short description next to the name, but not being strictly part of it.
Maybe making use of the already existing Short Description field that can be seen with the File Type add-on? Or maybe adding a new field for Program Function.

For that to be really useful will involve to have two (or more) lines of text next to the icons and a Description column next to the name in the list.
(Tangentially, having more than one line of text below the icons in icon view would help alleviate the problem with long filenames generating an absurdly long line of text that extends its wings left and right like an albatros in flight.)

In icon view:

(Icon)
NameOfApp
function-of-the-program

In list view:

(icon) NameOfApp | function-of-the-program

In Deskbar:

(icon) NameOfApp
_____ function-of-the-program

A complement to this could be to also implement the HaikuDepot categories in Tracker and Deskbar, but that will be just a little help, because many programs only fall into a category in a very broad way, or fall into more than one, or in no category at all.

[PulkoMandy]

If only things were that simple!

We have apps named ShowImage and MediaPlayer. Is that a name? Is that a description? Is it both?

If you display both side by side “ShowImage Image Viewer” or “MediaPlayer Media Player” looks a bit silly. So, what works for PoorMan doesn’t for other apps.

Also, there is a cultural element.

@Handmaus

I think a program’s name should be treated as that, a name, an identifier, and never be changed

This is fine if you speak english or at least use the latin alphabet. Now imagine if the names were all written in greek, or japanese, or any other language or script you don’t know. You can’t read them. You can’t know how to say them. This seems like a problem.

Maybe you live in a place where people are sufficiently english speaking that this is not really a problem. Here in France, it is probably OK, in some cases people don’t speak a sngle word of english, but at least it’s the right alphabet, they can mispronounce things as if it were French, and they will do fine. But in other countries this is not the case at all.

So, there is no universal solution to this. Each country, language and culture may need a different answer. And that’s why there are no guidelines and it’s up to each translation team to make the decisions that make sense for them.

[humdinger]

Probably a setting in Tracker preferences (and Deskbar preferences?) to “Show tooltip for applications” that are triggered in Tracker icon mode and the Deskbar menus. The tooltip shows the ‘short info’ of the app.

Major problem here is still that the resources that hold short/long info aren’t translatable ATM.