Earlier this year, I had asked if a ‘fork’ of Haiku is possible. After reading in Guidelines, and I quote, “The Haiku project believes that having one distribution (the one officially released by the project) is the best long term strategy to ensure success of the platform…” I do not believe that making a fork should ever be done if Haiku is to stay alive.
However, recently, I had read a few interesting posts that caught my attention that I believe should be addressed seriously as open source programmers, including “How to use programs for Windows with Haiku?” and “The chicken and egg problem of BeOS.”
Is Haiku ready to face the world of real-time OSes? It is honestly well-built, but as both posts pointed out, what can it run? It is estimated that Microsoft® Windows® holds “90% of the market share” (Wikipedia).
Therefore, I put forth on the table a few questions about Haiku in response to reading the posts. Should we want it to run Windows applications or “programs”? Should Haiku adapt to the Windows® user? What will the normal end user want? Will Haiku be able to surpass the MS foothold? As one user pointed out, end users “have taken the blue pill”–that is, are MS brainwashed. MS is not helping the situation for programmers either–again I quote: “programmers program with Microsoft.” Adding to this, recently MS launched an ad campaign against openOffice.org!
Is our best bet for OSS survival Wine and Linux? I hope not, and I hope that open source can stay alive and grow. I believe these are serious questions every coder or user with any open source platform, should be asking right now.
Bit ambitious if I must say, but I guess if Haiku is going to succeed, it must push hard. Linux has made an appearance in EeePC’s, but that has already been replaced in the netbook Market, by Windows XP. First, the OS needs more third party support. Most of the drivers at Haikuware are just spruced up carryovers from BeOS. Although there is steady development of the flash plugin and the gutenprint port, it’s still not enough. It needs a killerapp, or several killerapps to justify it’s existence and tempt more people to download and use the OS. If possible advertisements could be placed on the Internet, maybe even in other forms of media, like TV commercials (very unlikely, but there’s still a chance).
It’s not worth developing an idea for possibly over 10 years with the final result not setting much of a mainstream benchmark. Go on, push the envolope as far as possible!
I doubt that my fellow Haiku developers would even concern themselves with competing with other operating systems. True, there are features of other operating systems that are considered desirable, but there has always been a strong sense of doing things the Right Way™. The main goal has been an operating system that we can use ourselves and like using it. As a team, we’ve always had a tendency to march to the beat of our own drum, taking the good features from other operating systems and ignoring the rest. We’re not trying to take over the world – just building something for ourselves with a shared vision. The Haiku definition of success just isn’t the same as it is for Window$, Linux, or Mac.
This is not merely addressing Haiku–but really, open source software in general. If any OS is not adaptable to the ‘end user’ world (particularly the MS users), then it can be considered, in theory, a ‘hobbyist OS’. I believe ReactOS has got the right picture in this aspect–not only can it run Windows® apps, but it looks like Windows®. While this is not considered good to the Unix systems fan–think of how many MS people we can get out of it!
Haiku, for instance, needs a way to either support installing Linux or Windows® drivers for wireless connection support, printing support, and modern USB device support. Secondly, we need a way to actively port Firefox™ and other applications from other OSS platforms to Haiku–similar to how Fink is used for running Linux apps in OS X. I’m not saying doing this is the answer–but if Haiku is to succeed as a platform, it must support the common user, not just the BeOS user or coder.
Therefore, can these features be implemented/programmed? Since Haiku supports C and gcc, and is also Unix-based, it may be possible–but the main problem is that Haiku does not include any implementation of the X11 framework, needed to port several X-dependent Linux applications. However, I’m not saying Haiku should become Linux in the least–but definitely, I’m saying it needs to support Wine and newer programs.
This is what I see if Haiku is to move forward into 2010 successfully as a major platform.
I think the previous reply to yours indicated that it wasn’t about “success” or mass-appeal.
It never really has been, apart from a brief flash of Zeta.
Some people collect stamps. Some program in BeOS, or now Haiku.
I spent considerable time playing around on BeShare, and that was the impression I always got.
Enthusiasts, deeply embedded in their chosen timesink.
With an astonishing sense of humor, to boot.
Of course, I may have gotten it completely wrong.
For all I know, millions of Haiku Minions are ready, all over the world, to leap out and take over everything.
I wouldn’t be too put out if they did.
I guess it’s just about completing R1 that matters the most at the moment, and getting more programmers. The end user could be thought about once those two important segments are done. The team that made this can,t spend years making this OS only for people to tinker with. I think it will be an achievement in itself if Haiku surpasses the life span of BeOS and becomes a viable platform/OS.
If we look at software with the outlook of it being only with its own niche, then why is the software being actively pushed and developed? We need to work on something the end user can grab hold of, and if not, I don’t see how it will expand and relate to others. We need to keep standards and software open for all–but mainly so users will use it over MS software.
Sort of in closing the comments I’ve made so far, what can we do but develop something equivalent or better to the MS users world? Even now, I bet there are users using XP or 7 that are reading this thread and checking out Haiku–but don’t understand the fun in programming. Therefore, what can we do but develop something that is revolutionary?.. and one day, MS users will call that impressive. Until then, all I think we can do is wait. As of now, I’m thinking of a concept that needs to turn into programming soon.
a OS is nothing without applications to make it useful. regardless of the gui, IDE’s etc etc etc. If all I get is a blinking cursor, what am I to do with it ? What value is it ?
Can’t make a sandwidch without bread. Can’t build a engine with no car to put it in. Can’t fly a jet without wings.
Applications are actually more important as users get attached to apps, especially ones with large monetary investments.
Haiku does not need to support anything other then software designed for Haiku itself. What it does need is modern software and drivers, equivalent to software of the same genre on Mac’s and Windows. Haiku still doesn’t have a proper office suite, or video editor, and in terms of drivers most of the latest ones are just ancient BeOS carryovers. Haiku needs more widespread video/audio card support. Of course, those problems will be solved when the final version of R1 is launched.
@Paspie: “Haiku does not need to support anything other then software designed for Haiku itself.” I strongly disagree with this statement. An estimated 88% of the market today uses Windows® globally. If we cannot get them to work with a new operating system that supports them, they will continue to use purely MS software. Why would they use OSS when MS software runs 3rd party and other MS software? OSS must support these users–or 88% of the total market will be lost. To make matters worse, Apple® has 7% and Linux 1%. Therefore, Haiku will be left with little less than 4% if this happens.
Most of the basic drivers have been coded into Haiku–the standard retail computer should be able to boot with the sound, video, and input devices supported. I can see room for improvement for Haiku in your previous statement–without specifying options and mounting an iPod™ in disk mode, it is not recognized.
As far as software is concerned, I’m waiting to see if there’s a complete green light for building a fork, because I’m thinking of building a few things in there myself if possible.
Haiku isn’t meant to compete on a broad scale compared with Macs and Windows PC’s. It’s here for those who like it, along with BeOS fans that need an update. Anyone else who wants to use it is a bonus. I can garruntee that it will be an extremely small Market share, but it will also be quite a significant one. Running Windows apps completely defeats the point of Haiku, bit lazy if I must say. By having a proprietary range of software Haiku users are more likely to make the effort to use the software they can choose from. It would be too easy to make windows apps run on Haiku.
@Paspie: Again, I totally disagree with you for logical reasons from your previous statement: “It would be too easy to make windows apps run on Haiku.” Have you tried compiling the needed packages and dependencies that wine uses to operate properly, or are you just posting to fire back at the previous post without understanding this? Do you understand how the POSIX and Unix architectures work or how different processors handle data, or what the difference between i386, powerpc, and i586 even are? For a working example of the ‘easiness’ in running wine, try running a Windows application in wine on a 64080 PowerPC-based computer.
Haiku is not to compete with Macs or mainstream PCs. I agree with this. However, what I’m explaining is that Haiku needs to be able to actively have Windows executables runnable on the Haiku platform. This is merely so at least Haiku can be dual-booted by end users the Haiku and Windows operating systems. However, yes, it would be beautiful if Windows users could quit using Windows.
Again, I quote: “By having a proprietary range of software Haiku users are more likely to make the effort to use the software they can choose from.” This would be disastrous! The open source programming community would like all programs on open source platforms such as Haiku to be free–although proprietary components have been thrown into programs, and thereby made proprietary. However, I fully understand that the original Be™ programs were indeed proprietary, and the Haiku project promotes the BeOS™ experience. If I build a program, for instance, I want the source to be open in order to have others improve on the original work.
I didn’t mean to be rude here–I imagine I certainly was–but I needed to clear up a few points that I think were important.
People invest a lot of money in Windows licenses too. Using your argument, i doubt they’ll be interested in Haiku anyway.[/quote]
Well looking at linux. You may very well be correct. But some of the problems with linux have nothing to do with upfront cost and more to do with backend costs.
It is my opinion that Haiku has the potential to succeed on cheap (in both dollars and resources), ARM based hardware (smartbooks etc). Microsoft has shown a reluctance to support this kind of hardware with anything other than WindowsCE. On such potentially cheap hardware the additional cost of an OS license is an issue that some vendors have shown a willingness to work around - meaning, install linux instead. This gives a lot more leeway on ARM platforms for users to try something different. A smartbook user is someone that has already decided that low cost, potentially long battery life and possibly even cool, quiet computing is more important than marching in lock-step with the existing majority of commercial OS users.
Well, I don’t arm if going to be hanging around for long, to be honest. Its actually been lossing market share for decades to x86, x86 BTW is now going to be available with integrated GPU “APU” soon enough and at under 10w package this winter and I hear rumours of sub1w APU’s very likely late next year at 28nm for AMD and similarly for intel as well.
So, what does this say about the future of arm ? Kind of bleak. The best thing going for arm was watts/performance. with x86 closing the gap due to node shrink and the great power of x86 cpu’s. I really don’t think its going to be about battery life. the new bobcat core APU’s from amd are likely to be a hit and are very very very cheap to make.
Whats that really mean ? Well if I read the market correctly. It means that x86 is making a run for mobile space with AMD running with scissors.
Now if x86 can be adopted in say a ibook or itablet etc etc etc, its good for the public as the existing x86 ecosystem won’t require a massive overhaul to bring in and as much as its nice to have a competitor to x86, its also kind of stupid as its wastes r&d resources that could go elsewhere.
everything ussually coellesces to one best design. given enough time. while x86 isn’t perfect it has many advantages over arm.
If I wanted to use a windows-look-a-like system then I would use actual Windows (or Reactos once it matures sufficiently). I’m thinking maybe you are on the wrong forum
Success is a subjective and relative term. If only the Haiku devs themselves end up using Haiku it would still be a success since they wrote it for their own use, everything else is just icing on the cake as far as I see it.
[quote=agreimann]
I’m saying it needs to support Wine and newer programs.[/quote]
No, I don’t think it NEEDS to support wine, but it’s certainly not a disadvantage in my eyes (btw someone was asking about memory mapping functionality for wine in the mailing list just recently so maybe someone is up to this huge task). If so, great. Either way I’ll still only stop using Haiku when you take it from my cold, dead hands
Haiku is open source, free, and unlike Linux it’s squarely aimed at the desktop just like Windows is. Personally I enjoy using Haiku alot more than enjoy using Windows, then again I prefer using Linux over Windows aswell (although not near as much as I enjoy using Haiku). Apart from better software and hardware support I don’t really see alot of stuff that Haiku needs to be attractive to most end users.
ARM is being used more than ever in todays world. It’s new market seems to be Smartphones and Tablets (IIRC all Android phones/tablets are ARM, and so’s the iPhone, iPad, Apple TV G2…). Smartbooks and eventually servers and desktops seems to be the obvious evolutionary path for this processor architecture. ARM (the company) has been developing new chips with multiple cores and high clock rates, perfectly suitable for desktop processing, and even low wattage supercomputing.
I can see that the teenies (2011-2020) could well be the decade of the ARM.
In fact, i’d go as far as to say that Macintosh’s in 5 years could very well be ARM devices…
ARM has come a long way since the Acorn Archimedes
look at market share from 1980 to 2010 and your perspective of arm will change. Also x86 has some features that make it better at certain tasks. Arm is better in certain tasks. What threatens arm is low wattage integrated CPU/GPU from both AMD and Intel. Soon node shrinks will make the power differences between them irrellevant and Intel has a pretty big lead over AMD on both.
all of these architectures will be totally pointless by 2020 anyways.
[quote=The123king]ARM’s outlook is bleak? BLEAK??!?!
ARM is being used more than ever in todays world. It’s new market seems to be Smartphones and Tablets (IIRC all Android phones/tablets are ARM, and so’s the iPhone, iPad, Apple TV G2…). Smartbooks and eventually servers and desktops seems to be the obvious evolutionary path for this processor architecture. ARM (the company) has been developing new chips with multiple cores and high clock rates, perfectly suitable for desktop processing, and even low wattage supercomputing.
I can see that the teenies (2011-2020) could well be the decade of the ARM.
In fact, i’d go as far as to say that Macintosh’s in 5 years could very well be ARM devices…
ARM has come a long way since the Acorn Archimedes[/quote]
