Wow
http://haikuware.com/20100815523/interview-grzegorz-dąbrowski-of-tiltos
yes, it looks promising! (even if some people would probably complain about OOo or TiltOS not being in the spirit of BeOS or Haiku…)
There is an interesting interview with the developper behind this:
http://haiku-os.pl/node/1244
I complain that OOo and TiltOS are complicated to install 
Lets run a application Java. Likes thats even a good idea. Its like .net. Crap.
Both Java and .Net both have their uses. But writing desktop apps wouldn’t be the best use.
I have 2 programs I use heavily. Last year they switched both apps to .net and it was like someone tied a boat anchor to the computer. Database is alot buggier to. Lots more crashs etc.
I have heard of benchmarking being done that states if you want to kill half of your system performance, run the same task in .net. Java isn’t much better. In fact I think to a large degree we’d all be better off if those 2 IL’s went away.
Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, …
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
[quote=tonestone57]Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, …
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it![/quote]
I understand the interpreted language layer issues.More wasted HP on crap that could just be written using common librarys and compiled to run under more OS’s. eventually most OS application writers get to cuaght up in the eye candy. We could this neat shiny widget. Sure you could, but you strip away a bunch of computing power to do it making the computer far less effiecient.
As more people start making there own home videos in HD and even LoeDef formats we will see alot more strain on the pc and the best way to manage alot of that is to keep the OS footprint light and the same goes for the applications. Thats why I proposed vertically intergrating GPU computing power into the Haiku. Could you imagine the performance increase a native kernel intergration like this would bring to the end user. It would also make it MUCH easier for developers to tap into this power. When they aren’t busy worrying about the physics of cloth on a coat 
Is Yabasic comparable to vb ? I am googling it now.
OpenOffice is a C++ program … the only place java comes into the picture is some plugins which are written in java.
I’m learning lisp at the moment and it has several advantages It can be written like python in an interpreter and compiled later for a release… it also seems to be an extremely flexible and powerful language.
yabasic is structured BASIC. VB is object oriented. yabasic would be similar to what C is to C++. yabasic and C look fairly similar.
Good # of programs on haikuware with GUI that were made with YAB. YAB programs are mostly yabasic. YAB allows you to make a GUI program (or front end) fairly fast.
YAB (yabasic) examples:
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/development/app-installation/synthetic-package-manager-pro
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/utilities/cd-dvd-recording/qba
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/internet-network/ftp/greentube-a-youtube-downloader
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/utilities/compression-archiving/extractnow
Streakx & Lelldorin do lots of YAB programs.
“OpenOffice is a C++ program … the only place java comes into the picture is some plugins which are written in java.”
Right you are! I was talking in general about Java & .NET. I was going off-topic there - sorry.
@tonestone57 I do agree with your points about interpreted languages though. That said they do have advantages for speed of development and debugging if not runtime speed which is atainable with some compilable interpreted languages.
I might look into doing a LISP (CLISP) C++ binding so programming could be done for haiku in LISP… I don’t think that would incur undue overhead if it were compiled.
It seems the Open Office code still has a ways to go as the native rendering backend isn’t written I think there is a backend for QT that might be worth looking into… it doesn’t use the native wigets though it simulates them.
[quote=tonestone57]
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it![/quote]
Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku); A bytecode representation; A virtual machine to run the byte code; A licensed brand of Sun Microsystems and now Oracle;
Android developers use the Java language, but neither the bytecode, VM or brand. Google developed its own bytecode and virtual machine. The emphasis in the virtual machine was on security, Android devices can determine what a particular app will do (e.g. make calls, use the Internet, determine your location with GPS) and let the user decide whether to run it. This makes it possible to run Android apps without needing to trust the entity that created them, which makes an open market for apps viable, unlike for the iPhone.
Android also includes unique technology (it’s Free Software of course, but it was developed by Google) for power management. This is critical to a mobile device, and the approach taken in Android seems effective, particularly in later OS builds like Froyo. The APIs and VM for Android were built with this power saving in mind.
You can buy a smartphone with non-Android Linux, but as you observed people aren’t buying as many of these as they are Android phones. Most people probably don’t want to write raw C code for their phone, and those who do can ‘root’ Android and install non-VM binaries if they please.
“Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku);”
Irrelevant. Most OSes are programmed in C or C++ for speed. Even POSIX libraries are C coded. Java is too slow for a real OS. Android is actually a hybrid, uses Linux Kernel (C++) with Google’s custom GUI (based off Java). Anything that is GUI intense on Android will take greater CPU power because of Java.
Linux has excellent security so forget about playing that card.
With so many developers on Linux you would think they could create a version with greater power management. Microsoft does it with Windows CE (C++), Apple does it with iOS (C++), …, but Linux does not? I guess no one thought of creating a Linux Mobile version?
Power saving is about: turning off the screen, reducing clock frequencies on CPU & GPU (lower power consumption), less power use on screen (brightness) and going into (low power) standby when not in use. It makes you wonder why Android can do these better than Linux.
If Java was so great Sun should have programmed all of StarOffice (OpenOffice) with it and see what happened. Then you would see what dog slow meant.
Many OSes, SDL/OpenGL/DirectX games (complex not simple ones) and other big programs are done in C++ or C for high performance!
My off-topic rant on Java and Android OS.
I think I’ve said enough on it.
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.
Good catch dru. Bad example on my part. Java has been around over 10 years and not caught on. That has to tell you something at least.
With OpenOffice on Haiku, native office suite would probably get delayed being coded. Not ideal situation but better than nothing?
[quote=dru]
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.[/quote]
Nah. If anything, it can only help us. Right now, what we have a sizable lack of is actively-contributing developers. This is nothing on stippi, axel, and the others – they’re great and doing everything they can. There’s just not enough of them.
We’re at the point where we have an operating system. True, it’s nowhere near production-ready, but we have an OS. Now the problem is that we lack certain key kinds of applications. An office suite is one of them. KOffice sort of works, but not well enough to be suitable for day-to-day work or even occasional use. Having a working OpenOffice port can only help us. We don’t have anywhere near the developer resources as a community to be able to develop an office suite in the near future. They’re extremely complicated beasts, especially if you get to even the feature count of Writer or Word.
No, the Linux kernel is not written in C++
Should I read any further? I’m guessing the errors continue at a pace.
When it comes to the whole native apps versus ported apps thing, I believe we need to be realistic. As much as I like webpositive, creating a webbrowser that keeps up with what users have come to expect these days is pretty much a full time job. A port of Chrome and/or Firefox seems inevitable in order to fill that need. Same goes for software like Open Office, Blender, Inkscape etc. Native apps trying to keep up with such projects seems extremely unlikely. I’d prefer seeing native development done on filling gaps that porting cannot fill, and of course making sure that those applications that gets ported feel as native as possible.
It’s pretty clear that there’s no way there will ever be native apps able to cover all the bases so instead of ‘fearing’ the ports, it would be better to make sure that the native applications that exist/will exist are as polished as possible while taking advantage of the specialities Haiku has to offer (extended file attributes, replicators, translators etc).
“No, the Linux kernel is not written in C++”
Linux Kernel is actually written in C. Um, very close. C++ just extends C or maybe you’re too dumb to realize that?
“Should I read any further? I’m guessing the errors continue at a pace.”
No, do not read any further. You apparently are a “know-it-all” so why would you need to read my comments? I would really prefer you did not respond or read my comments! I will just have to igone you in the future. That is what you get back when you throw an insult to someone!
I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that we put up a bounty and port GOBE Productive 3 to Haiku. Stippi has the source code, under an NDA to GOBE. If we put up a bounty he could find the time. It is an excellent Office suite with amazing features and it is native to BeOS. Here’s a detailed review:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q2/gobe/gobe-1.html
My personal feeling is that we should have multiple Office packages for Haiku, choice is good. But primary efforts should be put in GOBE Productive, because it is native, and full featured. This software would run on netbooks like greased lightning.