pls, alpha 5
Right now they’re doing a lot of bug squashing in preparation for the release. It may be a couple of months more before it is stable enough. In the mean time, you can help out by testing nighty’s and filing bug reports.
a long wait (
tnx
If the devs are working towards an Alpha 5 release, then would it not be a good idea to announce it? There are quite a few die hard fans who have left because things were moving to slow for them. Going more than a year between releases is too long, and people need to know that work is ongoing towards Alpha 5.
Perhaps a monthly statement regarding the next release would at least show users and fans the progress that have been made towards that goal. Many users never read the mailing lists and important progress should be front and center on the home page regarding a release that is in the works.
Once the devs reach a consensus that a release is in order, that fact needs to be posted on the front page and in the forum. Then once a month a release report could be done explaining how far we have come to a release and how far we have to our goal. This will help to prevent some users from thinking that Haiku development has become stagnant and the R1 release will always be a few years away!
In short, Haiku needs a Public Relations makeover. Haiku needs this not just for the average user or the die hard fan, but for the would-be users or developers. Haiku would probably have more users and developers if less people thought Haiku was a dead or dying project! People outside of this community see Haiku as a re-implementation of a long dead OS with little or no chance of reaching R1! I know this because I have had these conversations with Windows, Linux and Mac friends!
Because the interval of official releases is getting bigger leads people to assume the project is dying and development of Haiku is slowing! Haiku does not need an Alpha or Beta release to have a reason to spin a stable release! Having stable releases between Alpha or Beta releases ensures that the Haiku is current and the project is alive in the minds of those outside this project.
Asking people to run a nighty while ok for some, it is not a good substitute for an offical stable release. When average users are told to run a nightly build and then run into bugs and issues does not help the overall image of Haiku! People will think that Haiku is unstable and buggy and that perception will persist! “First impressions are the ones that stick with you!”
I hope I have not offended anyone. I just feel strongly about Haiku and her future! I know my “opinion” is not important, but I ask you all to think about this.
ddavid123
I deleted the “gcc2 must die” comment from kim1963. The repetitiveness of that comment, regardless of the topic at hand is becoming troll-like. Have a nice day.
Yes, we can certainly improve our public relations. What we need is people to step in, contribute that kind of articles to the website (anyone with an account can write articles, and if they are good, they’ll make it to the homepage). This is one of the many ways you (or anyone) can help Haiku, without the need for C++ development skills.
I’ll point to the roadmap for progress on the next release: https://dev.haiku-os.org/roadmap.
You can see there:
- Alpha 5 only has 16 open bugs
- Some of these were already blocking some of our previous releases. They will be pushed back again (I don't know why people insist on scheduling them for each alpha. I tried moving them away, and they went back!)
- Most of these are rather difficult to solve, being kernel panics and not always easy to reproduce.
As for adding "extra" releases between alphas, do you think it is that easy? With the current workflow, doing a release is not just pressing the big red "Release!" button. all the development occurs in trunk, which is often unstable. So, we need a long testing and debugging phase before we can do a release. I've been suggesting we set up a new workflow, using Gerrit. This is a tool where people commit their changes (using git), making those easy to test, review, and merge when they are good enough. Other projects are using this with great success. It would make the nightlies more stable, but delay the arrival of new features in them to after they have been at least minimally tested.
There are many other things we could do better, like, writing unit and regression tests, and automating them. Rushing into a release would not get us anything closer to that. So, we're taking our time to do it right.
Also, I still don't understand how people can feel that a yearly release schedule is too long. This is a complete operating system. It tooks 10 years for Microsoft to move from Windows XP to 7. Do you really want to update your system every 2 weeks? I sure don't, I want a system that will last and that I can rely on. We're not on the same time scale as projects such as Firefox. Ubuntu has a 6 month schedule, this is crazy, and 2 years after a release they are still rolling a dozen patches everyday for it.
Pulkomandy - I agree with everything you’ve said, except I do think maybe quicker releases apply more to haiku than to Windows XP, because Windows XP was pretty much feature complete when released. With haiku people are keen for a new release because it’s moving so fast they want the new features! Nonetheless, I don’t want to see releases rushed. I think the next alpha should only be released when system update and a few other things are working. If whole system updates was in and your work on web+ reached a point where html5 video was working I think people would seriously rave about the next haiku release, and hopefully a lot more people would start using it! But anyway, I think the release schedule should be left to the developers.
I would agree with you on your comment about Gerrit. It works really well…my team is using it on an Android project and it has helped a lot for workflow.
Sure, all other grievous bugs people have been reported don’t “need” to be fixed in alpha 5 because it is, as you will doubtless tell people if they moan, “only an alpha”.
I don’t think that’s actually relevant at all. Alpha 4 was repeatedly delayed, and when it eventually shipped it had such catastrophic bugs that an Alpha 4.1 had to be rushed out to replace it. “Taking our time” and “doing it right” are largely unrelated here. The reality is that volunteer “release managers” may not end up finding any time to do the “managing” part of the role, setting dates and making people stick to them, and since all development is done on the trunk that leaves nothing to release.
But let’s not pretend that isn’t a choice. Haiku rejected “release early, release often” at its outset. That’s a choice, and it costs something.
[quote]
Also, I still don’t understand how people can feel that a yearly release schedule is too long.[/quote]
What yearly release schedule? Haiku R1 would be a release. Dictating in advance when it will ship would be a schedule. But in fact there is no schedule for Haiku R1.
Haiku (as OpenBeOS initially) was in progress over all of those 10 years and released nothing. Microsoft shipped Windows XP, Windows Vista (despite delays for which they took a pasting in the industrial and commercial press) and Windows 7, all of which went through the entire development, alpha, beta, release candidate process too.
Nobody is talking about two weeks except you. And most people don’t consider an OS that corrupts disk contents and then takes days to do a simple data transfer to be something they can rely on, though it doesn’t seem to have phased you.
But you are. Haiku has decided that it wants to provide its own web browser. That means committing to the same treadmill as Chrome or Firefox, because Haiku doesn’t have Chrome or (halfway modern versions of) Firefox, so “just go download Firefox” isn’t an option. It’s not your fault that you can’t keep up, but it won’t stop being true.
What’s crazy about being up-to-date ? So far Haiku hasn’t released R1 and so doesn’t have to face the problem of how to support it, the alpha Haiku “releases” are immediately unsupported and people are told “just update to a nightly” straight away. How’s that better than the experience for a Ubuntu (or Windows, or OS X) user who gets a simple graphical “update” UI now and again to get the latest fixes and improvements ?
Haiku doesn’t believe in choice, so you’ve got to find a “one size fits all” approach, which invariably means some people will be disappointed. A few years (2003) after Haiku work began, Red Hat released Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3, and just over a month ago it finally became unsupported (meanwhile Red Hat had shipped RHEL 4, RHEL 5 and RHEL 6). Is ten years support of the same OS the kind of “system that will last” you were thinking of? BeOS and Haiku have never even pretended to offer that.
I never said we should have a “release” every few weeks! I have said before elsewhere that Haiku should strive for a 6-12 month release schedule. From Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 was eight months. From Alpha 2 to alpha 3 was thirteen months. From Alpha 3 to Alpha 4.1 was seventeen months! It has almost been sixteen months since Alpha 4.1! The interval between Official releases grows by almost five months. So if that continues to remain true, then the next Official release will be 22 months after Alpha 4.1.
You are right, it IS up to the developers to determine when a release is warranted. I also understand that preparing for a release is alot of work for you all! If there is a tool or a paradigm that will help lighten the load, then perhaps you should consider using it. I am not saying this as a negative criticism, on the contrary. The one reason I am saying all this is because I love Haiku and all those who work to keep her alive!
As far as Public Relations go, I would be willing to do anything I can to help in this department. I have no experience in this area, but would be willing learn and to help in any way!
ddavid123
hrev 46642 x86 - the best choice for the user
Haiku - the only operating system installed on my home laptop.
Users need a stable release, guaranteeing work openjava and Qt4 software - not less frequently than once a year .
[quote=kim1963][quote=mmadia]
need a stable release, .[/quote]
yes, and not the game developers
sorry
When is the first BETA (not alpha) release expected, approximately?
Meanwhile, a big THANK YOU to the developers. Your hard work is not going unnoticed.
[quote=PulkoMandy]
Also, I still don’t understand how people can feel that a yearly release schedule is too long. This is a complete operating system. It tooks 10 years for Microsoft to move from Windows XP to 7. Do you really want to update your system every 2 weeks? I sure don’t, I want a system that will last and that I can rely on. We’re not on the same time scale as projects such as Firefox. Ubuntu has a 6 month schedule, this is crazy, and 2 years after a release they are still rolling a dozen patches everyday for it.[/quote]
I remember Windows XP with some fondness. There were little things called SP1, SP2 and SP3 in there that were, in effect, point upgrades of that OS. You were getting a new XP every year or so until Vista arrived.
And PulkoMandy, we are updating our system every two weeks. Some of us are hitting the nightlies even more frequently than that. Go read any Haiku forum or mailing list, and you’ll see this:
“I’m trying to do XYZ”
“Sure, just dump 4.1 and get a nightly.”
I don’t even know why we are so hung up on this old-fashioned “release” thing. Just accept that the nightlies are where things are really happening, see that as the Haiku version of rolling release and move on. Yes, I am suggesting no release, ever again. Instead, put the nightlies front and centre as the normal way to do Haiku. Which, in reality, is what they are.
I don’t expect to see significant change from one release to another if the releases are frequent. While I will agree that the nightly images are in essence a rolling release, they are by no means stable and feature complete! Stability, security and feature completeness are qualities that users expect in an Operating System they use on a daily basis! I am willing (and frequently do) use the nightly builds, however to use it as my main OS considering all the change and hiccups that occur is not optimal.
Now I am a person who likes to think of myself as a fairly technically savvy person. I enjoy testing new and (unstable) programs and Operating systems! My use of Debian sid is an example of my willingness to test and use software that is on the bleeding edge! I have Arch Linux (Antergos) installed on my HP laptop and have fixed a few issues related to upgrading systemd. I love to install Haiku nightly builds in VirtualBox and also on my laptop! I am willing to roll with the occasional punch, hook, and uppercut that Haiku throws at me! Average users are not that nerdy or dedicated.
To say that the “‘release’ thing” is old fashioned may be correct! But to expect users to stick with potentially unstable, buggy, and data corrupting software is not wise! If the nightly builds WERE stable and secure, then I would agree with you that they are good enough. Given that it currently takes much effort and time to prepare for an Official Release, I understand why they are not as frequent as some would like.
If there was a “testing” branch where all the new changes from master gets merged once every three months and then work in the “testing” branch focuses on bug fixes with no new feature commits. Unless I am mistaken, Haiku could then have a stable “rolling release” update every three months. I know it would be extra work, but I would be more than willing to test that build and report any issues I have. Then any bugs or other issues that get fixed in the testing repo, could then get merged into master lessening the burden of figuring out what was already fixed and what was not.
If this was done, then Haiku would be more like Debian! Debian has an Unstable, Testing, and Stable repo! In my opinion, Haiku would benifit doing the same. Haiku could have a master (unstable), testing, and then Alpha 5 (or whatever is next) With this seperation, users could take advantage of a much more stable Haiku OS via Haiku testing or Stable (alpha 5) repos!
I agree that the rolling release paradigm of software distribution is probably the future (for open source software for sure). But Haiku nighly builds are not a viable option for regular users who expect a hassle free experience! That is what Official Releases are for! And I would hope that the developers would want the users to have a hassle free experience! If Official Releases are too hard to do every six to twelve months, then please consider a more tested, more stable “testing” build! Otherwise do not tell users that the nightly build is the one to use and expect them not to complain!
If you really think that a year and a half to two years or more is not too long to wait for a stable release (especially for an open source project and accounting for the rate of change) then perhaps I am wrong! However, I do not think I am wrong. Only time will tell.
ddavid123
Wow. hrev 46642 works nice. 
This is now written on an Haiku 46642 LiveCD.
It is only sad, that it don’t use the right resolution. My monitor have as native-resolution 1920x1080. But Haiku gives me as maximum resolution 1280x1024. 
But it have detected the right name of it. on the left side of the “Screen”-program stands ‘LG W2261 21.5"’. Thats right. Its an FLATRON W2261VP.
Greatings
theuserbl
PS: Seems that sometimes the haiku-os.org-server is down.
My monitor have as native-resolution 1920x1080. But Haiku gives me as maximum resolution 1280x1024. 
But it have detected the right name of it. on the left side of the “Screen”-program stands ‘LG W2261 21.5"’. Thats right. Its an FLATRON W2261VP.
Greatings
theuserbl
.
Welcome to the Haiku shell.
~> ls /dev/graphics
~> listimage | grep accel
??
~> ls /dev/graphics/ vesa ~> listimage | grep accel 1649 /boot/system/add-ons/accelerants/vesa.accelerant 0x17b0000 0x17b4000 0 0 TEAM 1030 (/bin/grep --color=auto accel): ~>
Welcome to the Haiku shell.
~> listdev
?? videocard