Can you describe your wayland problems in a bit more detail, maybe on another tread / forum, since this is the haiku one?
I have been using wayland on linux for 3-4 years now, switch when i got a new HighRes Display for my Notebook and had scaling problems (slooooow) on X.
X11-like forwarding now works with waypipe, wayback promises to enable old windowmanagers to work on wayland, screensharing works for me.
Still looking for the best xdotool replacement.
Thereās not so much more details I can say about that.
I havenāt used Linux for years and hope Iāll never have to,I can only repeat what I hear from others,who all prefer X11.
One guy told me the desktop session didnāt even start with Wayland.
Another one told me about very laggy desktop performance with Wayland and everything reacting fast as expected with X11 (that was pretty new hardware).
I heard of apps not working at all with Wayland,while they do with X11.
What personally bothers me is that I canāt even uninstall Wayland if I only ever use X11 because itās dragged in as dependency by stuff like GTK.
I donāt want to start a flamewar here,Iām happy that Iām just not forced to use Wayland and that other alternatives exist.
It makes me a bit angry when people want to see X11 dead.
Donāt use it if you donāt like it,for me and many other people it works good enough.
Drag&drop has always been problematic in Linux. Wayland didnāt cause this.
Wat do politics have to do with this? X11 and Wayland are developped by the same team. If they had called it X12, would it be more ok?
Wayland solves many problems, but the problems it solves are not the ones you see on the Linux desktop. Wayland allows to cover the other uses of Linux: phones, tablets, smartwatches, car dashboards, AR and VR headsets, embedded systems, ā¦
And these are where the money is for Linux today. This is not political. This is a software stack evolving to fit the needs of the teams paid to work on it. The desktop Linux has never been a significant source of income for anyone. The last ones to try were Canonical and Ubuntu. Before that there was RedHat, Mandrake, Corel, and many others. But no one wants to buy a Linux desktop enough to pay developers to do it. The other types of systems, on the other hand, you will find no shortage of customers (companies wanting some nice UI on their phone, car, rocket ship, soda bottle vending machine, whatever). And so that is where the effort is put. Thatās all.
Thatās not politics, unless you argue for a switch out of the capitalist/neoliberal economy we live in. But I doubt that is what people working on Wayland have in mind. Wayland is being adopted in Linux distributions because it is actively maintained and its the way forward to bring Linux to more places. Even the former X11 developers tell you so. Pulseaudio was similar and was adopted because it was good. Pipewire was adopted because its even better. Wayland is being adopted slowly because it is still quite young, eventually things will be put into place and it will work great.
Hi nipos,
your friends information is quite outdated
what i can tell you from using wayland daily for over 3 years now, it works.*
*It had a lot of problems in the early days and with nvidia cards, but that is mostly solved now.
Some things like support for screenreaders or automation (xdotool) are still in development, but coming along. Both Gnome and KDE have switchted to wayland first / wayland only and are quite usable.
āstill in developmentā, āquite usableāā¦ and that 17 years later.
Seriously, does this justify the rush of KDE and Gnome to adopt Wayland? Because it isā¦ āquite usableā? Even worse, does it justify ditching X11 altogether? Or itās just ālook, we did it firstā - as if anyone cares.
Many apps are X11 only, and you need a compatibility layer to run such ālegacyā apps - then pray they will work. Right, now they are ālegacyā. Why? Because there is a ānewā kid in town. Itās new, itās different, therefore itās ābetterā.
Personally, I couldnāt care less, I donāt use Wayland. And of course I donāt use KDE or, even worse, Gnome. They have nothing new to offer, other than devouring resources for nothing. I didnāt use those desktop environments even when they were based on X11.
But Iām really tired of this mentality, āthis is new therefore it is betterā. Hell NO, new APIs, protocols, frameworks, applications, programming languages, etc are not automatically better. Some are, sure. But often they are worse, especially when they are introduced with a hype. There are countless of examples about that.
Not only that, but more often than not adopting anything new just because it is new is bound to have issues. Several ārollingā or ābleeding edgeā GNU/Linux distributions adopt the ānewā right away, and all of them have issues. Even Debianās ātestingā, which is probably the most conservative of those, does have issues; each time something is updated something else may or may not work. Others, like Arch, are just Russian roulette simulators. No, thank you. Whatever ānewā is introduced has to prove it is better than what it is supposed to replace - not the other way around.
Iām not saying Wayland is worse than X11. I do not have enough personal experience with it to judge. All I did was to give its API a try, and I was not impressed at all; in fact, my first impression was it is unnecessarily complicated. But thatās not enough to establish a concrete conclusion. All Iām saying is, I donāt see why the rush. And the hype makes me suspicious because usually, thatās how crap is pushed.
Wayland has to prove itās worth it, especially when it requires to forget what you knew and take the time to learn something fundamentally different. Until then, I want/demand to have a choice. Whatever desktop removes the choice and wants me to use Wayland can go to trash bin. I will trust X11 until Wayland proves it is objectively better and it is something more than āquite usableā. I refuse to be their beta tester.
Wayland is already here in production and works fineā¦ The steam deck uses it for itās gaming mode and allows the compositor to do some nice things like let the user define if and how games should be upscaled, something people who play pixel art care aboutā¦ not so much on X11ā¦ but at the same time the desktop mode of steamOS runs X11. Itās no problem either way.
I am investigating multi-seat support right now for my new linux āgameā pc. And honestly writing a wayland system compositor seems like the best bet. The X11 way is very complicated and error probe for this usecase, so no thanks there. 
I think you could, because you spent a lot of time ranting about software you donāt even use.
Also, Haiku is more than 17 years old and still in beta as well. Building good software takes that long.
At least it supports drag-and-drop.
I was ranting against the mentality āitās new, therefore itās betterā. KDE and Gnome are good examples of that.
Thatās literally how the scientific method works: any new theory must be able to explain all the same phenomena as existing theories and a bunch more. Otherwise itās not any better and wonāt be adopted as a replacement. Not even if itās simpler, which is otherwise a plus.
Unless I am lost in translation, I donāt see the relationship between skills or care about accessibility, or any other characteristic.
In other words, you are saying that personal political preferences inhibits them to perform some activities with efficiency ?
No, I said they donāt care. The first change they made is adding to the readme: no equity, no diversity, no inclusion. How else can you interpret that, if not a statement against accessibility?
Ok, I could have stated that better.
Excluding older Nvidia cards, or if you have a rare not yet supported use case, Wayland is far the better option than X11.
It is faster, smoother, feels more organic to use
So if you do not have a specific reason to use X11, use Wayland
It is great that someone is working on X11, but they seem a bit headstrong and careless.
There is a reason most of the original Xorg developers decided to start Wayland, X11 is very old, with a lot of workarounds and quirky solutions.
It is faster, smoother, feels more organic to use
Itās slower: Hard numbers in the Wayland vs X11 input latency discussion - Mort's Ramblings
Very few DEs except gnome and kde can use wayland, and those users thus donāt have a choice.
Someone started the development of wayback, now at 0.2 Release, a minimal Wayland environment for using X11 window managers, not ready yet, but promising.
Besides gnome and KDE there are a lot of other options using Wayland,sway, hyprland, cosmic, xfce, miri and even a waylandmaker
Xfce does not fully work with wayland yet, at least in my experience. I think it is most of the way there now (finally)
I can recommend Cosmic Desktop, it even support tabbing windows like haiku
Why do you try so hard to force people into using Wayland?
Use it if you think itās useful to you,but there are many people in this thread who have a different opinion,myself included.
What gives you the right to decide what I have to use on my computer?
Iām really not interested in starting yet another flamewar,but wherever I use a Unix-based OS,I use Xorg,simply because it works good for me.