Haiku Menu Should Be Changed

1

I wonder if everyone would agree keeping the menu layout is in the best interest of Haiku?

BeOS we know as a system came and went, also KDE in their early version of the 1.x desktops had this style of menu and that came and went, so I wonder, why would people think this will be a success when it wasn’t in the past?

This style of menu layout is very old school.

I’ve been into Unix/Linux 10 years, I consider myself to be pretty hardcore and I’m overwhelmed with this style of menu. I never liked it in KDE when they first tried and I can’t say I like it now any better. For the experienced users, it makes us feel like we’ve stepped back in time 10 years.

Each to his own as they say, after all we do drive different cars as the saying goes, have different likes, but one truth does remain, systems are popular for a reason and if it was a popular menu style then it would of never died off in the Unix world. The Haiku team should really stop and realize KDE had been down this road before and changed, this is not to say everything now about KDE is for the better, but they changed for a reason, it didn’t work.

Windows, OS X, along with Unix/Linux and their Gnome and KDE desktops are all popular for a reason and Haiku should really start considering this when going on with this project. Look at the major players out there and what do you see? The vast majority of users, inexperienced and experienced are typically running, Windows, OS X, Gnome/KDE styles of desktops and then XFce is starting to make it’s way into this market.

As an IT Tech, when I work with inexperienced users wanting to explore alternatives, there is one question they all ask first, will it be harder to use?

The truth is, this menu style might not be harder to use, once you get use to it, but there are a few facts that do remain, it has a cluttered look and it makes the menu look overwhelming and intimidating to the inexperienced.

Also inexperienced or experienced, another fact remains, you’ll hardly find a user that cares for clutter on a operating system, most people like things to be simple and efficent and the menu in Haiku does not give the appearance of efficiency at all.

The one word that can truly summarize this menu is that it’s to ‘BUSY’ looking. People are not drawn to busy. No where in the world of technology will you see busy winning people over. Computers, cellphone/pda, mp3 players, etc., not one of these types of devices has won over the market of consumers with an approach, or layout to busy.

On the contrary, smart marketing departments know that in this day in age, busy is best kept to the lifestyles and work places of the consumers, not in the layout of their devices, to help them manage their busy life.

I truly hope that the Haiku team will ditch this menu style and instead make a more friendly file explorer layout for searching through the Home/System files and diretories.

Here is a screenshot of the menu I took while running Haiku in VirtualBox.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4720/82976499.jpg

I think the Haiku team has something really great going here, but only time will tell.

2

Perhaps you’re looking for something similar to “Seeker”:

http://bebits.com/app/3158

AFAIK, it should work on Haiku, although I haven’t personally tried it out.

The context menu to drill into file directories is not the only method you have to choose from - you can of course double click on a volume to open a “Tracker” window - from there you can alter its settings to add a navigation bar at the top and put it into single-browse mode.

The context menu feature is pretty damn handy as well, especially for copying/moving files. The “explorer” view with a tree on the side is one of my most-hated solutions, FWIW - and I never use that, even in Windows.

3

I’m not personally looking for anything. I just installed Haiku to check it out is all. I’ve been following it a little since it started and when I saw the Alpha came out I wanted to install it.

I’m just making an observation as someone that has been using Unix systems 10 years, that this menu layout is something old school and should be changed, to something more suited for a modern day OS.

Things of the past do help and help to show a way forward, but there comes a time when you also let go of the past and move forward, finding a more productive way.

This menu is simply not the way of the future, it’s a step backwards…

4

This right cklick “menu” as you call it is the best feature of the BeOS / haiku Tracker. One can “drill” down quickly to any file on the system without having to open a Tracker window.

that this menu layout is something old school and should be changed

Old school you may call it. S W E E T is what I call it.

5

What the? That’s not really much of a menu. It’s just a way of navigating the file system. And a VERY handy way of doing so too! Do you have a better suggestion? Simplifying the file system? Or removing the navigation option altogether? I have to agree with some of the comments here. I just can’t see how this could be “old school and something that should be changed”… At least to me, it’s one of the progressive features compared to other systems that make me want to use Haiku…

6

As the other’s have said, I think this is just a shortcut feature that can be used in any Tracker window.

The real Haiku menu is on the leaf-button up in the corner :slight_smile:

7

From your screenshot, I see what you mean: it looks a lot like some of the old X11 window managers, and must seem very inefficent. I don’t think that menu is the way intended to start apps though. I only use that menu for moving or copying files, e.g. quickly copying a group of files from a directory to a sibling of that directory (e.g. /boot/home/projects/myfile to /boot/home/archive/myfile). For that use, the navigation menu is very useful.

I think the system management (settings and shutdown) part of the Haiku leaf menu is very well implemented. Personally I have never used it as a “Start” menu or changed any of the default apps listed there, but the functionality is there to use it in the same way you would a Windows Start menu.

I put most of my common apps on the desktop. It might be nice to have a quicklaunch type thing in the Deskbar as KDE has. There is “LaunchBox” included with Haiku, which is somewhat similar to XFCE panels. I don’t use it personally, but it is much more capable than it first appears if you play with it a little. You can use it to create multiple panels etc and change the icon size. There is also a hot-key program called SpicyKeys that can start apps.

8

I really enjoy this kind of menu very much and find it very conveniant and cleverly made!

9

I also REALLY like that menu… I fail to see how it would be confusing to noobs as well its just a menu with the file tree in it

also the real haiku menu is the leaf menu not this right click popup

I would also point out that I think the direction taken by KDE and Windows/vista and up is the wrong one… and such menus are quite cumbersome similar to how I can never find what I want in the categorized windows control panel and must always switch to ‘classic’ to get anything done

10

The “main menu” is on the leaf button on the Deskbar, which has an applications menu, recent documents, and everything else you’d expect from an OS menu. The menu you are talking about is really a shortcut for opening Tracker, Haiku’s file manager, quickly.

Personally, I don’t see it as being confusing or unwieldy. The idea of the shortcut is to make browsing through an otherwise spatial file manager like Tracker be quicker and take less windows, and I think it succeeds at that purpose.

You’re right that it is an old-school concept: Haiku’s Tracker is taken from BeOS’ tracker which was open-sourced as OpenTracker and has exactly the same functionality, and predated KDE by several years. I don’t think you’re going to be able convince anyone to change it considering the origin of Haiku, and I think your argument that only people who used KDE 1.x will know what you’re talking about is extremely weak considering the number of former BeOS users around here.

I don’t really see your comparisons with KDE 1.x being valid either: it’s not supposed to be your primary way of opening files or applications unlike KDE 1.x, it’s a shortcut in a lesser-used menu, and its use in KDE was especially illogical considering it didn’t even use a spatial file manager.

Your comparison with Nautilus is also rather poorly-thought-out since by default it doesn’t even have a tree menu - that’s only in browser mode and the default is spatial. That said, some distributions like Ubuntu change the default, and you have to wonder why: perhaps without a shortcut similar to Haiku’s spatial mode it’s considered unwieldy.

11

I’m talking about when you right click the desktop and get the menu, as far as the leaf, I didn’t spend much time digging through it so I don’t know if it gave a menu the same.

Ok I’m open minded here, but I do know for a fact that in the Unix/Linux world this is a very old school menu concept, there is nothing new about this.

Also if it is popular, then does anyone know what other OS out there is using this? Personally I’m not aware of any Unix/Linux OS using this style of menu.

The point I was trying to make was if this was a clever way of doing things, a great idea then the top Unix/Linux development people would of adopted it, but they didn’t, so think about that…

Let’s take Natiulus as an example, with the ‘Tree’ menu to surf through. Navigation is navigation, click and go, it all happens in the same manner. Like as an example you want to surf to /usr/lib and then go a few directories deep into the /lib directory to look for something, then the end result is the same. In the explorer window or menu you’re going to click your way till you get to where you want to go. Click and navigating will not happen any faster in an explorer window, or on a menu.

The efficency or speed isn’t any better in one over the other, that’s impossible, if someone thinks one is faster then the other, then please explain how that could be possible? It can’t…

The other point I was trying to make was that there is no need for a menu like this thinking it’s offering a better, clever way to do anything as far as just navigating to a /path, nothing else, just clicking and navigating to a point in the system. If you’re thinking about other features the menu might offer, that’s not what I’m on about here. I’m just talking about navigating by clicking and going to a path is all.

Also with this menu in Haiku I did not explore how deep it goes into the system, how many sub directories deep, but as an example when KDE first developed this before LCDs came on the scene, after the menu was spread out as far as it could go to the right, then it started it’s way back to the left, just filling up the screen in both directions. Now if you want to talk about a screen full of mess that would take up your entire screen in both directions, this was the mother of all menu messes and that’s what I’m talking about.

Try to imagine that, that this is the type of clutter it can become. As far as right now in the Alpha stage I have seen a few sections where the menu starts going back to the left for me because it is filled up as far as it can go to the right, because I’m using a CRT monitor.

Unless you’ve used KDE 1.x versions then you don’t know what I’m going on about.

12

[quote=cb88]I also REALLY like that menu… I fail to see how it would be confusing to noobs as well its just a menu with the file tree in it

also the real haiku menu is the leaf menu not this right click popup

I would also point out that I think the direction taken by KDE and Windows/vista and up is the wrong one… and such menus are quite cumbersome similar to how I can never find what I want in the categorized windows control panel and must always switch to ‘classic’ to get anything done[/quote]

Direct access to the file system is confusing to a lot of people. I’ve worked in broadband support so I know :frowning:

No offence, but it seems your entire argument is based on your own inability to understand and/or use the “modern” mode. It sounds like you’re used to working with computers in one way and think everything else is bad. Don’t get me wrong, I also grew up using the computers of the 90’ and have been changing parts of Windows to classic mode. But I’m well aware that just because this is a good solution for me, doesn’t make everybody else wrong :slight_smile:

13

And in contrast, I grew up with Windows, and I was first introduced to Haiku’s navigation feature about a year ago (Been using computers for over 10 years…) when trying out Haiku. While BeOS, that introduced the feature (I think?), may be old, that doesn’t mean that its concepts are automatically less modern. I am used to the way it works in Windows and Linux, but I simply find this better.

What actually makes it so interesting, is that you need way less clicks to navigate, the subdirectories show up quicker, and without this feature there would be several occasions where you would have to open more windows even in order to do some simple file copying.

As well, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it. It’s there, it’s available, but it’s just an extra feature that you can ignore if you want. On the other hand, some alternative ways of navigating could be added, including shortcuts and treeviews. I personally find shortcuts quite handy.

14

Old School ?
Because you’ve been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I’ve been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years.
And this is in no way old, the right click desktop menu, which most people will never need to use, is simply a way to open folders or files from the desktop. And no other OS has that

I think your pretty confused about what a menu is
The normal, standard menu, is the leaf menu, as others have pointed out.
And the normal way of looking at folders, is to double click the drive or home icon
And then look at the folders as a square window, which is classic and simple, and very nice

The idea that Haiku should do something, because Linux does something, is the worst thing they could do. Linux is a failure any way you look at it. Old or new, past, present, or future
Its a free OS that still cant capture 10% of users in the world. How people can call that good in any way is beyond understanding

Thats like some billionaire building free cars, and giving them away, with free gas
And people still preferring to pay $20,000 for a crappy chevy

Just because a few homeless people take them, and live in them, would not mean the free cars are good in any way

I’ve been using Linux since before it had a desktop. And I cant stand it now any more then I could stand it then. Kde and every other desktop I have ever used is nothing but a colossal mess that you need a manual to understand

BeOS did not die because of its menu. And BeOS in its short life, had way more users for that amount of time, then Linux might ever have

I am glad to see that Haiku has updated or re-thought the file system enough to make a real system folder instead of playing the BeOS/User double tree system. I think that was a great idea

But as far as the menu system goes, with all due respect, I dont think this guy even knows what a menu system is

Microsoft has played the “lets change the programs menu game” every time we release a new version of Windows, game, way to often now

It is THE most confusing part of Windows, and really makes helping users hard.
Doing support, I often have to guide users to and through control panel, to help them with a problem, which these days means, I have to ask, what do you have, XP, Vista, Win 7, ?
ok, go here, go here, ok, now are you showing classic icons ? or are you looking at descriptions, etc etc etc, ok now go here, ok what do you see, etc etc etc

It would be so much easier if Windows stuck to the same menu, and classic control panel icons, for each new OS

The point being, change in any way is a disaster, some people like the old start menu, some people have never even seen the old start menu. Some people like the new XP start menu. Some people are using the new Vista start menu. And I have to know or guess at every single thing over the phone or through email. When talking to a noob, it can take a half hour just to help someone find the control panel

Haiku should remain as simple as can be. if someone wants to build and release a new tracker, or custom tracker, then great, let them do so
But Haiku should stay true and simple, the developers need to focus on drivers more then anything else at this point. Not trying to please every person who has a half hearted idea about this widget or that window. This girl will say windows should be pink, that guy will say the background should have flames. This group will say icons should be animated. That group will say people with only 2 fingers should have easier mouse access

The couple of things that be did, that made BeOS less generic, should be fixed. But other then that the OS should stay generic as possible. If I could change one thing, I would make the mouse pointer a clean and clear pointer, instead of a sloppy looking hand. But other then that, Haiku looks great, unbelievably great ! And the right click expanding desktop menu is a great way to get deep into the file system without clicking 1000 times, or having 1000 open windows on your desktop. Plus, while you leave it up, you can see or trace the complete tree, so you can remember how you got somewhere

15

On re-thinking that
I have noticed, Haiku has included something new, that BeOS did not have
And I do agree, that part is extremely redundant and busy

I’m not even sure what its called, but when you do the right click, and then follow out a menu or tree. there is a point, where you can see a redundant tree
A part where the menu shows the top or root ? or desktop or something
Basically showing a part of the tree most users will never use or need to see

BeOS did not have this, and it does make the tree look sloppy and busy

Maybe this is what the poster was talking about ?
That one part, that Haiku has added, does seem to be one mistake that was made

Either way, on another side note, enough of this, if Linux doesn’t do it, Haiku shouldn’t do it. When are people going to realize. Linux sucks ?
Seriously, Windows Sucks, Linux sucks. Mac sucks, BeOS was the greatest
In its sadly short life time, it was 10 times the OS any of those are or ever were

I use Linux, and have a great respect for it, but I would never tell my mom or neighbor to use it, its sloppy, messy, over blown, cant run crap, has no software, has games from 1960, software thats a pain to use, with the stupidest names you could never think of. Ugly desktops, ugly coursers, messy menus, 50 ways to do 1 thing, etc etc etc etc

I hate Windows and Microsoft with all my heart and soul
But at least it’s usable, and can run the newest games and business software
And it doesn’t have a directory structure that would confuse Einstein

Ubuntu is making awesome headway, but Linux is still a lame dog at best
While Windows is a St Bernard, nice but slow and huge
Haiku, has the chance to be a greyhound in its prime

Just get those drivers out, so more people can start using it

16

[quote=tsteve]Old School ?
Because you’ve been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I’ve been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years…[/quote]

I never said anything about old school in my post, in case it was me you were replying to in this part of your post.

17

[quote=Denise Purple][quote=tsteve]Old School ?
Because you’ve been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I’ve been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years…[/quote]

I never said anything about old school in my post, in case it was me you were replying to in this part of your post.[/quote]

Sorry, no, I was referring to the original poster
He calls it old school, but goes on to say he has been working with computers for only 10 years, I would hardly call that long enough to refer to anything as old school

Thats like a 10 year old, thinking he knows everything about life

Windows 3.1 might be close to old school, but 10 years ago Windows ME and 2000 were coming out
Even XP is 9 years old now

Anyway, no offense to anyone, I just get a little direct in posting
I barely have time to type, so its usually fast and sloppy
I just try to point out what I can, I hope I dont sound to rude

I just think its really important that Haiku make it, and in doing so, I think its really important that they stick to the original idea’s behind BeOS
There are over 300 operating systems being used in the world today
Most people only know of 2 or 3, maybe 4

I have used at least 50 different OS’s in my life time, and BeOS was the closest thing to perfect out of all of them. And no, that does not mean 49 flavors of Linux

18

Sorry, I missed that part of his. Well then. :slight_smile:

So I guess that means you didn’t try all 300+ distros of Linux? :wink:

But yeah, I agree. Haiku is the only OS I can see myself using in the future for other reasons than compatibility… I use both Linux, Windows, and even ReactOS sometimes, for compatiblity, but Haiku is the real deal. :wink:

19

[quote=fhein]

Direct access to the file system is confusing to a lot of people. I’ve worked in broadband support so I know :frowning:

No offence, but it seems your entire argument is based on your own inability to understand and/or use the “modern” mode. It sounds like you’re used to working with computers in one way and think everything else is bad. Don’t get me wrong, I also grew up using the computers of the 90’ and have been changing parts of Windows to classic mode. But I’m well aware that just because this is a good solution for me, doesn’t make everybody else wrong :)[/quote]

No it as about things being hidden withing a hierarchy that I can’t see so I can’t find what I want. It is better to organize things in a manner where they are visible and yet still organized in a reasonable manner the windows classic control panel wasn’t organized really but at least you could remember spatially where things were

It is also worthwhile to note that it is slower to browse through all the modern windows control panel panes than to load all the control panel items and allow the user to find what they are looking for

20

Modern mode, what is this?

I said I’ve been into Unix 10 years, not all of my computing years, that goes back to the early 80s.

There’s a few things I’ve noticed as a Tech over the years, some look the other way when they see something they don’t like, don’t know or feel intimidated, but aren’t bothered, then there are those that seem to be taking score and when enough negative comes against them, they throw up arms in frustration and want to ditch it and move on to something else. This is where I can see the menu standing in the way for some and loosing people.

Yes people will ditch Haiku that are newbies, in part, based on this, not completely the sole reason, but it will just be one of the pieces that breaks the camel’s back, if you see what I’m saying here.

A better solution if it isn’t to complicated would be to allow a user to change the menu layout.

Maybe the Haiku developers can give users a choice for menu layout options. One, a simple menu only showing applications, system and admin preferences, the basics like you find in Windows or Linux and then the advanced menu for those that prefer this menu view showing the systems direcs and folders, etc…