Haiku marketing windows 10EOL

Marketing
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Ah yes, the “focus switch”. It remains a sore point after all these years.

In the context of this discussion, ex-win10 machines are not “old” computers. Thanks for bringing the discussion back to its original intent.

It is a possible alternative, but not for the general user who simply buys the computer with Windows and Office pre-installed, and who clicks on “Yes” when offered an update. These are people who have never, ever installed an operating system. Sure, there’s a first time for everything, but it’s a tough sell. Be prepared to sit on this forum day and night answering installation questions.

But it is an alternative for that 1% who still like to tinker with computers, who have installed Linux in the past but returned to Windows. People who personalize their desktop, who can write batch files (if you can write batch files, you can write shell scripts) , maybe even little python scripts. Not the development elite, but the level just below them. If we can get the message, somehow, through to that 1% …

Whattheheck, I have a YouTube channel, I’ll give it a shot.

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Nobody is being forced to dump pcs. People should stop repeating this nonsense, in order to not cause unnecessary worry to less knowledgeble persons.
Your usual applications keep working in Windows10, and probably will for a reasonable time yet. Of course, some may not, but that is due to their publishers decision, not something caused by the OS.

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For personal PCs, maybe no one is “forced”. For enterprises, schools, and any organizations, remaining on an unmaintained OS would be inexcusable. Sure, they may reinstall all these computers with another OS, but if you have hundreds or thousands of machines, this isn’t worth the work. So, machines which would otherwise have lasted quite a few more years are being replaced.

And even for people just having a computer at home, remaining without security updates would be a bad idea, and Microsoft offers no update path whatsoever, with a rather short timeline. Their ecommendation (all over the media and also in popup messages from windows update) does tell people to get a new machine. Maybe you chose a very restrictive definition of “forcing”, so that these actions don’t fit into it. Sure, there are other options, but these take significantly more effort (in research of alternative systems, re-training, etc). It looks like some percentage of people are actually taking that route, which is good, but they are definitely going against the mainstream.

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Zorin OS is a Linux Distro, that is very popular. They have a free “Core” version and a “Pro” version with a few more “features” and supports development of distro. Runs slow on VM, but I understand it works fine on regular hardware.

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Absolutely the go to if you were a Windows users who just want to replace Windows and my children have used it for years. Release 18 has been polished incredibly. All plug an pray, just works and capturing Windows refugees has always been its core focus.

It is listed in Dr Googles “Alternatives to Windows 11”, while Haiku is listed in the top ten replacements for Windows 10!

Zorin’s market is not the market I was referring to. I was thinking the fractional percentage of Windows users who will upgrade, but then have their old machine to try something different (play on).

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I think that is a perfect approach as Googles bots devour its YouTube subsidiary. I notice Dr Google pulls up Haiku as an alternative to Windows 10 (the title of this thread). Maybe we need a new thread for Windows 11 replacements for AI bots to troll :laughing:

Your post is spot on the issues IMHO. I kept suggesting ways to avoid the “privileged user” issues and the need to MODERATE EXPECTATIONS. Any promotion should make it clear that Haiku is no challenge to the likes of Zorin as a drop in, plug and play, just works, replacement. It is for people interested in developing “better ways” for a personal PC to be and understanding some very interesting history of Redmond. That is the conclusion I have come to since being on this discussion board :melting_face: I still believe a “just works” package furnished distro for specified hardware is possible, but there is no appetite or spare capacity ATM, so emphasize it is a self build your own distro without a help line.

While my primary school children just sat on Haiku and used it, I think profiling the generations could be productive. Old Windows Convicts will recognize what is happening and how it is so much better than Windoze at that time. Millennials that have 30 sec shorts and instant swipes to extremely advance AI functionally on their Samsung will wonder what the point is!

That last situation is the “sustaining Haiku into the future” issue I have mentioned. How can Haiku become relevant to post millennials? The two obvious ones are Alt-gaming or developing interesting ways to engage younger people in programing, with games they can program up themselves being an obvious candidate. The IOT is a pretty saturated sector of children’s education and without hardware support a hard one to break into.

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what do you think we are working on, exactly? We have even more ambitious goals than that: a “just works” system (not distro) for all hardware (not just one specific machine). These things take time to build and to get right. Case in point: if you look deep into the forum archives, you will find the exact same discussion about the move from windows XP to Vista. In a few years you will surely find it again about whatever the next version of Windows is called.

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After searching for the word `Vista` I found a similar discussion, but nothing of the Win11 scale. Turns out Vista was not that bad.

Also, CPUs are not becoming much faster nowadays, so there’s little hope that performance problems will be fixed by hardware.

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The GHz count did not increase much, but CPUs (and computers overall) sure did get a lot faster and energy efficient in the last 10 years.

My machine from 2014 takes two entire days to compile WebKit. My current laptop does it in a bit more than an hour. The 2014 machine also heats my flat to the point I don’t need any extra heating in the winter.

Sure, it’s not as noticeable as the difference between a machine from 1985 and one from 1995 in usual workloads.

We’ll see what happens in the next 10 years!

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Yeah I have figured that is was what is being attempted AND THAT IS IMPRESSIVE AND HUGE! My suggestions were never critical of the amazing progress being made. Maybe if you do not view my suggestions and comments as a Developer, and look to what happens when R1.0 releases. My suggestion was a Lite-verson (light as in cut down version of packages and hardware compatibility) of that that may provide some income and a minimal prerun towards what will hit when R1.0 happens. The things you don’t seem to like about my suggestion are all coming with R1.0 IMHO, unless Haiku is stated as being a “For Developers” platform where users load up and debug packages themselves. In that case it really need’s stating on the websites etc.:grinning_face:

My experience has been that Haiku and Apps all sort of nearly works and it all sort of doesn’t quite. Hence my “cut down distro” suggestion where I could pay $25-$50 (I have no idea) for a version that got me a basic working desktop where everything included, like LibreOffice and Iceweasle and other typical stuff included in a basic Linux Desktop Distro: JUST WORKS. Since it would require a serious focus of effort to make it happen, a freemium charge for that version would be justified IMHO. If you want the packaged up version that doesn’t yet just work: Business as usual. Of course as time progresses the “Just works version functionality” would feed back into the current main developers version, so in the end everyone is a winner. Even current Haiku Users may see it as a great install to use as a donation mechanism that saves them time loading up the “just works” Packages. Developers to get it free?!

I am not expecting anyone doing more. My idea requires temporary focus of effort on getting a subset completely working as a complete package (That is what “ChromeBook” analogy, which was basically just Chrome, was trying to indicate). I also have enough management experience to know those last niggling 1% things are a PIA that take 10% of the total time and if less “trivial” impressive things can be done they will be. This sort of tedium, that is just sticking at, it deserves some reward that the new users could fund (Yes I know that is a Pandoras box, that is currently a block to my idea, but once Haiku is more a “sustain” release post R1.0 there is going to be more of that is suspect).

I am not criticising anyone or what is currently happening. It is a possible opportunity that could be perused if developers saw merit in a greater income stream and user base, without massive support burden on this forum. I am sure anyone with any Managing or Marketing nouse will understand where I am coming from.

I understand it would require a whole bunch of people having a whole bunch of discussions and changing their current plans leading to Haiku R1.0 (is there a plan?), and maybe getting some people with marketing skills to help with the R1.0 transition, so I don’t really expect it to happen, and it is not my position to make those calls :slightly_smiling_face: If developers are fully focused on getting the underlying Haiku to R1.0 that has merit, but what increase of income stream? My Idea is definitely about the User Package Loaded Distro that end users select. They will use it to do real life things, and is possibly premature for immediate implementation, but that doesn’t mean it cannot be planned.

As for me, I am leaving Haiku until R1.0 as It isn’t just working for me, and I annoy more than I help :grinning_face: . It is wonderful project, so good luck to all. Thanks for your patience @PulkoMandy

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Making a “lite” version of Haiku would be an additional project, and so, more work, and more delay for R1.

Also it wouldn’t provide extra income since we give Haiku for free to anyone who cares to download it (and we don’t plan to change that when R1 is available).

That is what I replied to. What else do you think we are working on, but fixing bugs, improving performance, and fixing apps? I don’t see what we could remove from the current work being done.

There are many people already doing just that. And then there are people who say “I would use Haiku as my main OS if it had [insert some feature here]”, and when we implement this feature, they immediately ask for another one. First it was Wifi. Then it was an office suite. Then it was a decent web browser. Now it seems to be 3D acceleration. I don’t know what will come next, but my guess is there will always be something else.

I understand the “I would give you money if you had a version with all the bugs fixed, all the apps working out of the box and better user support” but… we just don’t have that yet. And yes, it is the plan. Of course it is the plan. But it’s a lot of work and it will take a few more years. And by then there will be yet another thing we need to fix (wether it is new hardware, a new feature in the web browser, or a new app everyone wants to use that isn’t easily ported).

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Vista was terrible. The vast majority of PCs to which it was fitted weren’t able to run it at any more than a snail’s pace.

I am prepared to accept that it may have been fine on a powerful machine, but it was unusable on lesser hardware. I speak from experience.

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True, but for once it wasn’t Microsoft’s fault, it was the OEMs that crammed Vista into PCs that could barely run XP okay.

And yes, Vista was fine on good hardware (for the time), it’s also been instrumental in making 7 as good as it was.

I get why it’s being remembered as “bad”, but honestly it doesn’t deserve to be in the “crap pile” with Me, 8 and 11. Those are the truly awful Windows versions.

Vista was a resource hog with steep system requirements for the time, maybe comparatively more than most other Windows versions, but that’s most of its “faults”. Win 7 has similar system requirements and is remembered fondly because (among other things) those requirements were much more common by the time it came out.

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It WAS MS’s fault. They knew ot wouldn’t run properly on any normal PC, and they should have made that clear.

In fact, they shouldn’t have released it until three or four years later.

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Microsoft didn’t ship broken PCs, OEMs did, any sane person after a minimum of testing on that crap would’ve noticed XP was going to be significantly better on the same hardware. So either there was no QA involved or it was completely ignored.

It’s not like Microsoft forced them to build crap PCs and ship them with Vista, the OEMs did it themselves.

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I don’t see why you’d put Windows Me in the “crap” pile. It is pretty good technically for what it is, the last member of the non-NT family. Sure, Microsoft had already announced the end of DOS, maybe expecting to ship Windows 2000 with a personal edition that didn’t quite happen. But that doesn’t really make Me a bad version.

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MS knew that Vista would be released on every new PC. I can’t understand why you won’t admit that.

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I would put pretty much everything that company ever released in said pile, including operating systems and applications. Granted, some of them were better than others. I mean of course they weren’t all equally awful. But if you double, triple, or multiply by 10 a very small number, you will still get a very small number, just not the same as before.
Maybe 7 was better than 8 or the… “last version of Window$”. And yes, 10 was better than 11 (well, everything is better than 11 anyway). Does that make 7 or 10 good operating systems? No, just less awful than others in the same family.
By the time DOS PCs were at their peak, a few lucky guys escaped the pit and were playing with Acorn Archimedes or others, shipped with operating systems light years ahead DOS. By the time XP, 7, or 10 were at their peak, I was playing with way better operating systems.

As far “desktop” is concerned, GNU/Linux, BSDs, Haiku, etc are all dwarfed by the worst operating system ever created. That’s the ugly truth, and what version said operating system is doesn’t really matter.

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I am hearing you @PulkoMandy. You will note that all my suggestions do not extend the list, in fact the availability of three viable modern browser alternatives just made my evaluation task harder. I keep saying “Lite” “ChromeBook” like, Cut Down, for limited hardware: BUT IT JUST WORKS. Focus on what works (sort of) already because for the envisioned “distro” it is all there on HaikuDepot (just works sort of).

My experience is “it ALMOST just works almost”, and in 2025 when alternative do just work, new users will not come unless they have special requirements only Haiku can fulfil. The OS seems solid enough (given crashes have limited impact) with getting hardware working the main issue for users (I did keep saying for “specified hardware”). It is the software that appears the tantalisingly perfect equivalent to other platforms, then it crashes when you try to save, or somehow the dictionary isn’t there, etc etc etc All trivial boring stuff to debug, but a killer for users when on Linux it is just works.

Yes you are right it would delay the result of R1.0, but it would provide a cut down workable version sooner and that subset of the full R1.0 would be bug free when R1.0 is released. I do recommend the management/marketing team look at what is best for Haiku to achieve the success it deserves and my idea is only one of many that should be vigorously torn apart in looking for the smoothest transition. Personally I would always opt for a lesser offering that just works, than one that seems to do everything for everyone but then little niggles start appearing.

IMHO your management/marketing teem should look at what segments Haiku is targeting. That would help deal with the overwhelming list of user wants that inevitably occur. Haiku needs a strategy and plan to encompass each group it intends to officially accommodate.

I think we are saying the same thing from different perspectives, so please take it as confirmation your concerns are correct rather than me criticising what is being attempted. It seems there is a planned route to R1.0, so I wish the team and yourself all the best, great joy and good speed :grinning_face: .

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I guess you were lucky with it, the only thing I remember about Me is that it was chronically unstable and would bluescreen with extreme frequency, sometimes even just trying to boot. Sure, the whole Win32 line was always on the brink of collapsing in on itself but man, from my experience Win98 SE was worlds ahead of Me when it came to actually running on the PC it was on. (and 98 SE still bluescreened way too much)

Also, for being a DOS-based OS, the DOS version it shipped with was heavily neutered and only usable to run basic stuff. No reboot to MS-DOS option was available either. And most of its “new features” were backported to 98 SE in a very, very short time.
Going from 98 SE to Me was, in most cases, a straight downgrade.

Dude, if the PC with Vista on it was crap it’s not on the OS maker, it’s on who built and sold the PC without proper testing, simple as.
Vista on proper PCs was fine, at the time my brother had a Vaio with Vista on it and, yes, it felt a bit sluggish at times, but it ran just fine.

To me it’s more about the intent behind the OS. Like, Me was likely rushed out the door and suffered for it, Vista was bloated and overambitious and 8 was them shoving Metro down everyone’s throats.

Those were all bad, greedy and what have you but baked-in adware, spyware, tracking, privacy stealing apps, subscriptions, “sync your phone”, “gotta make an online account”, “use edge/bing/onedrive”, TPM… man, today they’re on an entirely new level of scummy.

As far as their software quality goes, sure, they got where they are now by cutting corners, being lazy and delivering the bare minimum every chance they got. But I don’t know if that says more about them, the enterprise market, the consumers or their competitors.
Like, if they’re so willfully incompetent how come nobody stole their pie in the meantime? That’s wild to me.

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