Ok then. I think we can probably sunset the Discord idea then if that is the case.
On the subject of progress on Haiku being too slow, I just found this from 2004: https://www.osnews.com/story/8114/three-years-of-haiku-the-long-road-to-evolution/comment-page-3/ which says that Haiku might be ready in 2010, but it would be much too late.
As you can see, not a new idea. Yet we’re still here and people still think we’re on to something.
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An interesting read - and you’re right, this discussion has probably come up time and time again.
And Haiku is an open-source project with a small team of volunteer developers (whom, I might add, do this out of dedication in their spare time) who have already done so much, so it would probably be a bit unreasonable to say that Haiku is progressing too slowly. And as @PulkoMandy has mentioned, ReactOS is quite similar in terms of developer numbers and structuring and they are still in Alpha compared to Haiku, so I think Haiku is doing quite well.
If we want Haiku to progress faster, we need more developers and volunteers. If we want more developers and volunteers, we have to reach out to other people and promote the project, not just the operating system.
And then we have to make sure that we are keeping tabs on all the other things within the Project and draw attention to areas which we feel need someone to come in and manage.
@leavengood I think someone raised the suggestion of having an annual meeting for the Inc. where major issues are discussed and where new members are announced and existing members can announce they are stepping down. Could you perhaps discuss this idea with the other Inc. members?
Thanks!
Using the available money to successfully fund a project (say, 3d drivers) and pulling it off will be a nice showcase to the community and a catalyst to get more donations.
Are there any news on the Inc side? Can you guys give us an update about the Inc.'s (if any) roadmap?
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Hey there, the reason the Inc is so quiet is that the Inc members are quite busy and thus might not have time to give us regular updates (which is perfectly understandable). That being said, perhaps @leavengood (who is more active on the forums than other Inc members) might be able to give you some updates. As for a roadmap I’m not too sure the Inc. has a roadmap, but hopefully this will be able to be clarified too.
Additionally, you might also want to look at this forum thread talking about developer contracts:
As @jt15s says we can’t really say Haiku, Inc has a roadmap. We certainly have some goals, but a roadmap implies some deadlines which we don’t really have. Given the current membership of Haiku, Inc, deadlines would likely just be missed.
But I can list some goals:
- Find some ways to use our accumulated resources to move Haiku forward. We currently have someone interested in taking a contract. It is someone from outside the community so he has some ramping up time, but we want to give him a chance and see how it goes. Unfortunately I don’t think 3D drivers would be anything he could tackle anytime soon. We won’t know the result until we give it a try.
- Rotate out some board members to get some fresher people. I plan to stay on the board for a while for various reasons but if we had some more help that would be great. We do get replies on emails when we send them but essentially 3 of the board members are generally inactive, so that just leaves Alex (kallisti5) and myself who talk to the community and perform various functions.
- Related to the above: codify some bylaws to make it more clear how the board will rotate and make sure we don’t get stuck with the same people for years on end again.
If anyone on the forums is interested in helping on the board, let me know, either in PM or public reply here. It isn’t super glamorous, but having some more fresh perspectives on some decisions and maybe help on some aspects of managing the Inc would be welcome. For example, helping sort out those bylaws. Even someone saying “Hey Ryan, how about that financial report?” to keep me a bit more motivated 
Lastly to reiterate something Adrien (PulkoMandy) likes to remind people (and I completely agree): Haiku, Inc does not control the development plans of Haiku itself, beyond the fact that (right now at least) a few of us members of Haiku, Inc are also Haiku developers. We don’t get any more “votes” when it comes to decisions for the project and while maybe some people might not like that there is not one “leader”, I think it is a nice aspect of the project where we do manage to get a lot done mainly with consensus.
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Why does Haiku Inc. board need help? Because normally this shouldn’t be the case; do you have plans (organisational changes, announcements etc.) to remedy this situation? Awaiting PMs or public replies should not count as an organisational policy.
This is true, but lack of plans to get more financial resources and the inability to use current financial resources hinders the development speed of Haiku. One can present the fact that Inc. is just a on-paper organisation to operate the bank accounts etc, but as a Haiku fan, I am not happy, and know quite a few people that are not happy either.
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The situation is unlikely to change as long as these people are unwilling/unable to help with the actual work, apply at the Inc. and share the responsibility.
Personally, while I’d appreciate the funds being spent sensibly, it’s not weighing so much on my mind that I’d sacrifice what I love - using Haiku - for things I don’t: dealing with bureaucratic details, forging master plans to spark development and brilliant PR campaigns - all things I happily admit I don’t know anything about anyway.
There’s a long way between armchair and a real chair on the Inc. board…
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This implies that Inc. is open for new members and responding to the feedback with action. Is it?
Yes, the Inc is looking for new members. See this extract from @leavengood’s latest post:
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about the Inc and there has been some criticism about it. However, at the end of the day, no real action has been taken. It would be great if someone new joined the Inc and perhaps took action on the issues people have raised. The Inc would really appreciate any and all extra help and plus, you also have a say in decisions the Inc makes.
I read the post, thanks for the extract. Let me inform you that a reply on a public forum does not count. Also it does not say “membership” explicitly, it says “helping on the board”, there is a difference.
Where is the announcement on Inc’s website?
The Inc’s website is very minimal and does not have a blog post system. I’d count @leavengood’s post as an “official” announcement since he is a member of the Inc.
I might write a blog post on behalf of the Inc announcing that they’re looking for new members/helpers to help spread the word, though (if that’s okay with the Inc).
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Maybe it should have a blog/news page, did that occur to you? Seriously people. Aside from the lack of an official announcement, @leavengood’s post no way would be valid for “membership”, since a consensus following a board meeting would be required (Inc. people can correct me if I’m wrong). It’s technically not even an announcement, just asking for help for the tasks that current Inc. members fail to fulfil.
I am a bit baffled by your post, for one @jt15s isn’t a member of haiku inc, and certainly isn’t responsible for their website design, so what good is it to use this hostile language?
The haiku inc board members may quite obviously choose any venue of communication, including this forum, where is the problem there? It’s not required for the inc to maintain a blog, and it especially makes little sense since they don’t have any steering power anyway.
I think by now the potential board members (that is, ones that the inc would even consider letting on) are quite aware that the inc wants new members, or help there. A blog on the inc website community members basically won’t see anyway doesn’t make much sense.
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I appreciate your thoughts, but I don’t think you fully grasp how legal entities work. Therefore I’d rather save my further opinions for the possible replies of Inc. members only.
My post was asking for people who would be willing to join the board, with the goal of helping to remedy perceived problems. The first step in any “board election” is a slate of people willing to be on the board. That is what I was asking for here, and this forum is probably as good a place as any. I could send an email too, or maybe post an announcement on the website.
It really is not so easy to spend our money as you might think. We have an amount that is enough to pay decently but still not close to enough to hire someone at USA wages for even a year. And we cannot just spend all our money hiring someone because we have other costs. If we put an announcement up offering some huge contract amount we will get all kinds of random applicants, just like tech jobs do, including people who have never programmed in their lives. Have you ever done technical hiring? In this case it is even worse, because if we hire someone unqualified we will still have to pay them even if they do nothing or actively make things worse. Pay them from donated money it took years to accumulate.
We had one very good possibility of hiring an existing Haiku developer, but for personal reasons that developer decided to not do it. We can’t force people to work for us either. That leaves us back in the situation of having to deal with random applicants. We have one current person we are vetting for a contract and I hope it can work out, but there also need to be realistic expectations. People will be disappointed if they expect a new contractor to solve the 3D acceleration problem in their first few weeks or months.
You may not like the situation, but your disappointment won’t fix current problems. Complaining won’t make current inactive board members decide to spend 20 hours a week they don’t have trying to recruit and manage a developer. Which is why I am asking for some help. It doesn’t mean one person has to take on the load, but if we had a few more people who could be more active that might help a lot. I don’t know if there is any magical solution beyond people willing to do work.
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Plese, you are super aggressive with everyone and that is not appropriate. Calm down and relax.
Also I think you don’t understand how Haiku and Haiku inc operate and work together. The inc is intentionally a passive entity and very behind the scenes. It is not here to do marketing, outreach, or anything like that. It is here only because we need a legal entity to own a bank account. That’s all it’s meant to do. That’s all it does. All other parts of the governance of Haiku are kept very informal. That is also intentional. It allows us to keep things working with our limited time (remember we are all doing this in our free time, which varies, and according to our motivation, which the aggressive tone of users like you is clearly not helping with). The informal nature of things allow people to jump in and out as they want or can.
So, if you have complaints about the lack of outreach and marketing, Haiku inc is certainly not the place you should complain about. It is none of their business. And if someone needs some funds for an outreach effort (things we typically do: travelling to opensource conferences to advertise Haiku there, print some flyers, …) then that someone needs to start setting things up and then ask the inc for funding. If you expect the inc to take initiative, you are somehow misled about its role in Haiku.
I know at least extrowerk has applied for joining the board a few month ago. What happened with that? He is a long time community member and I expected to hear about this a lot sooner.
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This is nice to know, but also disappointing to see that it only comes after a post criticising the current status quo (I remember a similar post of yours just after a similar enquiry a while ago too). Please make an announcement on the website, otherwise it will be forgotten just like the other forum posts of yours.
As for the other parts about the spending money and hiring a developer I am aware of the difficulties, so we are on the same page there. But I wonder, I remember making a suggestion directly to you to increase the donation threshold to something higher like $50k, so that it will make the project’s intention known to everyone that “Haiku is looking for the financial resources to hire a developer continuously”. You did not agree to that, but said maybe a lower amount would be acceptable. Was this discussed with the board? Why there is no official feedback about this? Why the suspense?
I am not aggressive, this is how I write. If anyone is offended by my words, they can speak directly to me, and I will apologise if necessary.
I understand this perfectly, and this is the exact thing I am complaining about. Haiku Inc. should not be a passive entity, instead it should evolve to cover the whole community, and give everyone who contributes to Haiku an official chance to participate in governing Haiku. I don’t see any other output but Haiku benefiting from this.
I got no answer.