Why Linux is not the best for your desktop?
UPDATE: I remove this becouse its nothing to do with Haiku… and its unfriendly with open source…
It’s all about Linux Windows and MacOsX, but I don’t see the relevance with Haiku !
not very convincing…
I’m making all my efforts to switching my friend to Linux
A person willing to make everyone happy with Linux deserves being locked up in a madhouse.
I think a person willing to write almost 10000 words for promoting the windows OS (without being paid) and reserving the domain name linux-faq.org for this purpose is probably close to be insane too. And there is nothing related to Haiku in it, so I guess your post is probably closer to spam than information.
There is also some misinformation, such as this supposed “bzip2 -cd foo.tar.bz2 | tar -xvf” to unpack an archive.
ok, please lock this thread… i don not write a spam … 
There is maybe some exaggeration but sadly true thing, too:
-
Terminal is NOT a modern way to use a computer! It was in the DOS era, but not in 2010…
Yes now there is X and the 1000s of DE (Gnome, KDE, XCFE…) but I’ve to note that GUI is not
useful in Linux… simply a lot of configuration applets (for example the network conf. applet)
not works! So you have to bring up a terminal and write insane commands on console…
You say “bzip2 -cd foo.tar.bz2 | tar -xvf” OK, there is a simplier way: “tar xjvf foo.tar.bz2”,
but not simple as click on the file 2 times to extract
You NEVER can convince ME that “tar xjvf foo.tar.bz2” is MORE simplier or COOL.
If HAIKU in the future (when will be out of ALPHA stage, now in understandable) ask me to use
a TERMINAL for doing something from unarchiving to Kernel configuration it FAILS as
Linux do! Never fear in tentations "this is an advanced thing GUI is not needed"
should always BE a GUI. -
ABI compliance is a big mess: it is not only through different distro (a binary compiled on
Debian not work on CentOS or Mandriva), not only through release of the same distro
(Debian 4 and Debian 5 —> “floating point exception”), but through a kernel version and
another (I can understand for example kernel 2.4 and 2.6 but NOT 2.6.17 and 2.6.18): this is
true in particular for the more important thing: drivers! In particular if it is proprietary
and you not have the source… and I not complain with the “sad” hardware vendor… for
support Linux they must have a team of people that recompile the driver one time a week and
for thing?
Because someone decided that function foo() NOT take 2 arguments anymore but 3 (and the 3rd
should be always NULL)? That a device driver is not more initialized con init() but
with dev_init()…?
Or that someone after 20 years in which nanosleep() never worked (see man page if you not
think me!) resolves the bug… Good you can say? Well if my super bugged proprietary RFID
driver worked on Debian 4 (in which nanosleep() sleeps >= 10 ms) on Debian 5 not work anymore?
(yes not works because nanosleep() works for real… they said “sleep 89 ns” and now Linux do
it for real… is too little time to wait… so RFID no more communicate with HOST)
I’m lucky that I’ve the sources (and you not have to ask what I’ve to do to have it )
But if I didn’t have it what I can say to my client? That Linux is not adapt for… -
Package Managers are a KLUDGE, and I continue to think HAIKU should not have them.
Simply it shouldn’t need it… Haiku is ONE, the ABI must not change as 1-2-3 but only on a
very major release (I aspect that in Haiku 2 application not work on Haiku 1, and the other
way around should be comprensible: Haiku 1 is not supported anymore, but if possible
retain compatibility)…
Some Win98 application works on Win7, today… and something is true in the other way
(a modern application can work on WIN98), this is a stable ABI! So why we need packages? More
simple use the Apple way “BUNDLE” and download from internet on the site of the producers…
not in a repository (and if there is not? Simple you should compile it!) -
Distribution and forks are a cancer of the OSS (and this can kill Haiku, too as do with Linux)
Why there are drivers for MAC OSX (that has a little market share of Windows)?
MAC OSX is ONE, the ABI is stable, the SDK is good and DOCUMENTED, XCode is so smart
(as Visual Studio is) that write the code for you…
Linux instead are 1000s of different OS (yes I use the term OS I think the term "distribution"
is a lie, they are so different leading to binary incompatibility that have a very little in
common), ABI is not stable, there is not documentation (or worst if there is is wrong!), the
maximum that a developer has is GVIM and the console (there are OSS code editors, I have tried
to use Eclipse but need JAVA, so slow as hell…) not real friendly… and no GVIM not write
code for you (in plus gave you the attitude to press ESC to write in all editors ) -
X is a horrible beast to configure (have you never tried to change monitor and restart 'puter?
99% of the time you obtain a black screen… and you have to go on terminal and edit a file by
hand! Not to say what you have to do to configure a dual-head VGA! And GOD save you if change
GPU)
… and well the OS is really a command line thing (as DOS was!) and X is only an application
on top of it the same concept of DOS + Win 98 (or Win 3.1 as is not totally independent: you
will have to use the terminal… at one point: GUI is unuseful if I’ve to use the terminal).
So I think that list can be not as a publicity to Windows but as “what Haiku should not do”,
no copy Linux copy Windows or better MacOSX (or better too make something new that works
better!)! Linux is good only as a server, we want a Desktop OS!
@Fano You do realise that Microsoft is acutally investing in improving the command line because it laggs so far behind every other operating system!? Command lines aren’t about being cool they are able reducing time spent doing repetitive tasks through scripting. GUIs change even more than ABIs a 6 month old tutorial might not even be accurate anymore take belender tutorials since the redesign at version 2.5 all the tutorials are out of date.
You should try Geany its a decent IDE for C/C++.
nanosleep() for instance probably couldn’t even exist (functionally it would just sleep for the shortest time possible) on older computers because the CPU cycles themselves were measured in ns (50Mhz is 20ns and at 500Mhz 20ns is only 10 cycles which probably isn’t even enough time to put the process to sleep and wake it back up at least until you hit GHz speeds).
When you comment on certain design decisions you should also be aware of the reasons these decisions were made. You see designs are most often not choices but rather dictated by the problems and needs at hand and finding the best way to meet needs and goals. Package managers make it easy to keep everyone on the same page instead of people having random versions of software that is 5-10 years old installed. Haiku does have and will have a package management system to solve these types of problems. Realize it or not but every operating system today acknowledges the value of package management.
By saying that X design decision is awful you may well be calling the developers idiots when you haven’t even bothered to look into the acutal problems they were faced with.
You may find it interesting to know that I have several *nix computers from around 1991 that are still usable I can ssh into my school computers and run X11 applications remotely like nobody’s business. If GUIs are soo great where is windows 3.11 today? It has absolutely no usability value beyond a few games that were cool… yet even now the X11 protocol is as rock solid as it was 15 years ago. In most cases even extremely ancient X11 programs compile just fine! Where the problems come in is when *nix developers try to make it more like windows or MacOS without everyone being im complete agreement. As it stands now the only thing everyone agrees on is that no current solution is good enough let alone great.
In any case there are uses for GUIs and command lines alike… command lines stand on the premise that they are faster and aid in repetitive taskes. GUIs stand on the premise that they are easy to use. You can’t make a GUI faster because using a GUI means you must remove at least one hand from the keyboard which means lost time doing work. One way to put it is that clicking a mouse doesn’t get source code,resumes,essays or what have you written typing does. That leads me to believe that allowing at least some users to navigate the operating system without a mouse will improve the amount of productivity that can be accomplished using that OS assuming the task is repetitive. If the task is only done occasionally or is inherently graphical (setup network configuration,image editors )… then a GUI will win out.
Have you not noticed how MS has acutally integrated some command line functionality into their GUIs? for instance type a program name in the run dialog and see what happens. The most optimal OS is one that find a certain balance between ease of use and speed. Drag and drop is also another GUI metaphor that allows the GUI to replicate some command line features such as pipes but with less flexibility.
[quote=cb88]@Fano You do realise that Microsoft is acutally investing in improving the command line because it laggs so far behind every other operating system!? Command lines aren’t about being cool they are able reducing time spent doing repetitive tasks through scripting.
[/quote]
For scripting yes CMDline has sense, but as the primary interface for the HUMANS not!
The GUI is more intuitive… so if you say CMDline in Haiku will be used for automation using scripting OK, but no GUI applications will be a no-sense in Haiku (as it is in Windows “Dos” like programs in 2010 is ridiculous).
Yes, this the sort of think should be avoided! Why change all totally?
And the lack of documentation how is justifiable?
I think if I write an application for Windows in the legacy way (without using .NET) you can obtain a GUI application that works on Win 98 - XP - Vista or 7 and you obtain an application that appears “native” for all OSes.
I can’t do the same example for the Mac world (I think) Mac OS Classic and OSX are 2 totally different things.
Thanks! I try it… if my Bosses not see it! They’re convinced there is nothing better than using GVIM (or better VIM!) and the terminal…
It should be not exist! But existed… and quoting the manual:
“nanosleep() delays the execution of the program for at least the time specified in *req.”
Only in the very end of the page (where a lot of people doesn’t read) it says:
“BUGS: The current implementation of nanosleep() is based on the normal kernel timer mechanism, which has a resolution of 1/HZ s (see time(7)). Therefore, nanosleep() pauses always for at least the specified time, however it can take up to 10 ms longer than specified until the process becomes runnable again. For the same reason, the value returned in case of a delivered signal in *rem is usually rounded to the next larger multiple of 1/HZ s.”
So they admit that if I try to nanosleep() for example 86 nanoseconds it sleep 10 ms an enormous differences!
At cause of this “little” bug the use of this function should be deprecated (as strock() in the man they say : “never use this function”).
This incorrect behavior let people choose really erroneous delay in my example “86 nanoseconds” seemed reasonable (and indeed before kernel was corrected it was as in reality was 10 ms!), but on Debian 5 suddenly this driver no more communicate with device!
Maybe it was better to leave nanosleep() broken… I fear this solution is worst…
The package managers was realized why there is no-one Linux but 1000’s of totally binary incompatible OS! As the developers cannot realize all versions for all various distros (they’re 1000’s banally there is no space and time) they realize only the sources, someone other (the packagers) create the RPM for Red Hat and derivatives, the DEB for debians and so on…
The problem is you don’t have all software at disposition BUT only that the packagers choose for you! Yes you can go on the site of the producers but it’s very difficult you find the package for your OS more probably you find the sources… and you must compile it! No a difficult thing for ME or YOU, but not a thing that a Desktop OS should pretend from the average user… (and for a more esthetically point of view the package manager DB became “broken” as you have installed an application without its help, no more updates, no more “simple” uninstall).
More outrageous when the application is for Windows and MacOSX too, you find the installer (exe) and the bundle and you using Linux should have to compile…
The centralized updates is the only advantage of package managers, but I think should be done equally without the need of a package manager. If there is the possibility to download the software from the producer (using something similar to Apple’s bundles) and package manager (having then centralized updates, too) contemporary is better, right?
I’ve not said idiots to none! I would to know a 10% X developers or Haiku developers known this must be clear.
The design decision of X are taken 10 (maybe 20) years old, it is not a modern design… and a lot of the OSS people say too!
In fact there is a lot of tentative to obtain something more integrate in the OS or a more lightweight X.
Think at an Android phone X has sense on it?
You would execute remote X application from your phone - ?
Well… simple is begun Windows 95, 98 and then ME, then was abandoned in favor of the NT line that are real OS (the Win9X are in reality program for DOS as is X in some sense).
So continues to exist today as XP and 7 and 92% of 'puter runs it!
The remote X applications is a very good thing, but again has a real sense for a Desktop OS?
Has a sense for the market that Win, MACOSX and Haiku point to?
A note I can do this using Ximing in Windows without installing Linux in my office PC!
I think 5-6 years for now I do this from Haiku without no problems…
With X application you intend something as Motif? Very ugly if I remember correct
The problem is when you add Gnome or KDE to the mix… try to run a GNOME application in KDE or viceversa… this idea to have more, and more of all (1000’s of distros/os, 1000’s of shells, 1000’s of package managers, 1000’s of desktop environment) is the very Linux fault.
It is very pity all this know-how is so sparse… if they worked together instead of continue forking what they have obtained now?
I hope Haiku don’t do the same mistake only if it rest the “1” it can gain success… if it became 1000’s I (and lot of other people) reluctantly shall continue to use Windows or Mac OSX: simple there is no real alternative.
[quote=fano]
For scripting yes CMDline has sense, but as the primary interface for the HUMANS not!
The GUI is more intuitive… so if you say CMDline in Haiku will be used for automation using scripting OK, but no GUI applications will be a no-sense in Haiku (as it is in Windows “Dos” like programs in 2010 is ridiculous).[/quote]
For someone fluent, it’s much better to have a command line most of the time. This should be no surprise, after all we wouldn’t try to run a business by drawing pictograms on a chalkboard showing different members of staff carrying out activities, with each person occasionally coming to the board to see what to do next. No, we use linear commands, either spoken or written. The chalk pictogram approach would only be a reasonable option if you found yourself suddenly managing a staff who don’t share any language with you, just as a GUI is faster if you don’t know any of the commands or how they work.
[quote]
I think if I write an application for Windows in the legacy way (without using .NET) you can obtain a GUI application that works on Win 98 - XP - Vista or 7 and you obtain an application that appears “native” for all OSes.[/quote]
If you do this you will find it’s very limited. No Unicode (the Unicode family functions arrived later). Ugly icons and GUI layout (the more modern ways aren’t in Win9x or NT). Mouse scrolling doesn’t work properly, newer input devices aren’t accessible at all. Everything looks rather crude on Windows 7, and so on. Of course you can do lots of work to fix the problems. But to get even a mediocre application which is compatible in this way you will have to do many times more work than by just targeting a modern OS.
[quote]
This incorrect behavior let people choose really erroneous delay in my example “86 nanoseconds” seemed reasonable (and indeed before kernel was corrected it was as in reality was 10 ms!), but on Debian 5 suddenly this driver no more communicate with device![/quote]
The driver was broken all along. Why aren’t you angry at the incompetent driver authors rather than good developers doing their job? nanosleep() cannot promise to wake your process quickly. Imagine the very simplest thing - the next executable instruction of your process is paged out. To wake the program Linux must seek the disk (up to 12000 nanoseconds) and then read the page into RAM, flip to user mode and start executing (dozens of nanoseconds).
Nope. The package managers pre-date central repositories and central updates. Tools like apt and yum arrived long after the package management software was invented. Package managers were created to handle dependencies, something which remains an unsolved problem for Haiku.
X is more than 25 years old. For most of those 25 years some people have been certain that they were working on the next big thing that will completely replace X. Most of those “next big things” are now dusty memories, and X is still here. That’s because X got the fundamentals right, and was extensible to deal with the inevitable changes of circumstance. Consider movie playback acceleration. The most advanced acceleration in Haiku is colour transform. Of course such acceleration did not exist when X was invented, and neither did the colourspaces used. But because X is extensible an extension Xv was standardised in the 1990s which adds these colourspaces and supports accelerated transformations. The most advanced graphics feature in BeOS - and in X it’s just a minor extension.
No. Windows 9x aren’t DOS programs, and neither is X “in some sense”. The fact that you can be using a full screen text interface, type something, and find the screen is now filled with a GUI does not mean the GUI is somehow a second class citizen running “on top of” the text system. When Win9x is started DOS is carefully scraped away, and a full 32-bit protected mode operating system is running, DOS is gone. When X.org is started from an 80x25 text mode, the text mode is stashed away and X takes over complete control of the video chipset (in modern times, by taking the lock in DRI) and the text mode is gone.
Back when DOS was still popular you could get two more programs, as well as the one that starts Win9x. One of them starts Linux, another starts BeOS. Are BeOS and Linux both DOS programs to you?
[quote]
With X application you intend something as Motif? Very ugly if I remember correct
The problem is when you add Gnome or KDE to the mix… try to run a GNOME application in KDE or viceversa…[/quote]
This works very well for lots of people. Both groups co-operate and would doubtless be interested in any genuine bug reports you filed about interoperability.
[quote]
It is very pity all this know-how is so sparse… if they worked together instead of continue forking what they have obtained now?[/quote]
The same could just as well be asked of Haiku developers. Why not work on some existing project rather than Haiku? Haiku is much younger than KDE or GNOME, let alone the Emacs forks, or the Debian / Red Hat divergence. Compared to Haiku the FreeBSD/ NetBSD/ OpenBSD forks are positively ancient. Every Haiku developer could work on one of these projects. Of course they have their reasons not to. Maybe you think those reasons are good. But it’s silly to ask why people don’t all work on just one thing.
i think this page with name Linux-FAQ contains some true answers but there was more lies…
My View:
What is true:
1… Linux is at the first open source like haiku… this is big advantage. - more people choice linux becouse its free…
2… Linux is universal operating system… it have console, but have graphics managers too.
3… there are more choises of GUI.
4… it have more drivers… pls look to windows you must download drivers… find drivers… etc. i have old tv kart but i have problem to make run it… in linux only load module and is it.
Problems in linux:
1… more distributions… what i like on Haiku is that is only one Haiku… all developers works on one product like on windows
2… linux is very quality system… but have some outstanding thinks… like when you wants set network in kde settings … or small bugs they never be repaired for all time…
3… very fast development… allways at the time somethink is break…
I think it’s not right, that the post has been removed. It was placed in the category “off topic” and beside that it has also something to do with haiku, since it’s about open source (and even more haiku uses parts of linux) and it is also about the useability of an operating system. It’s a big effort to write something like that and i think there are no reasons for censorship. There are no personal attacks and a decent vocabulary is used. And the text is partially funny (humorous) and partly also informative and the author tries to give rationale arguments for this statements.
AFAIK, the poster censored themself.
Like it is nicely described in the following article, I tend to think that the reason why Linux (and other open source software projects) do not succeed in the desktop is not technical:
http://caffeine.shugendo.org/2010/10/24/whats-kept-linux-from-being-a-success-on-the-desktop/
Interesting and thought-provoking writeup by a former ACCESS/Palm employee.
I agree there… lack of Linux addoption isn’t for technical reasons.
I’ve mentioned it before but my grandpa has been using ubuntu 10.04 since it came out without any intervention on my part he even installed it himself which he could not do with XP (disk came with his computer and didn’t even include the required drivers for ethernet,sound or video)
My wife uses SuSE 10.2 as her only computer, and has no complaints.
And she is about as computer-literate as a hedgehog.
So although she knows nothing about its workings, linux has become unbelievably user-friendly.
Until something goes wrong, of course.
Then she calls for me to try to figure it out.