Why has Team Haiku not locked onto common PC Hardware line to expand Haiku

I posted this message a few moments ago in a thread where an end-user asked if this main board they want to buy is compatible with Haiku. As normal, and no offense to the responder at all, but they were given the normal visit the Haikuware Hardware web site for compatibility site. If there were tons of users using Haiku and all of us posted our exact configs on that site, it could be useful, but in reality, the data there is limited, old, and not really helping expand Haiku into the hands of possible users. Myself included.

Here is what I posted in that thread and figured I would post it in its own thread and see what others think. I would really digg seeing Haiku expand its user base, but at this point, I don;t see that happening. It is like pulling teeth finding a system that runs Haiku 100% for the basics, sound, networking, graphics, etc…

I really really feel the team at Haiku should find a common modern PC, whether it be a Mac Mini or whatever, that has sold in the millions, and get Haiku running on it. This way you have a better chance of expanding Haiku user base and show off such a cool OS. Right now you have a few dozen handfulls of users (or whatever it is) but it could be so much more.

I wish I was technical enough to make one work 100% like a Mac Mini or whatever and then help spread the word, test it for apps to run, and all that.

Anyway, I sure miss the BeBox days. 8-(

TJ

Email I posed in other forum thread…
This is by far, IMHO, the weakest link in getting Haiku into the users hands to show off how cool of an OS Haiku is… lack of a 100% known system one can buy off the shelf that Haiku runs on all cylinders. This is what has made me gently move away from an OS I think could be awesome.

I am a BeBox owner and really would love to use Haiku, even to a point where daily use of it would take place for some of my computing. But, finding a known system is like pulling teeth. Everyone always points to the haikuware hardware site but there is really limited information there on systems that will work. Nice idea for people to put their known systems and what works but with such a small user base, the data there is real old or limited.

Opinion… find a system that sells in the hundreds of thousands or millions, somewhat modern, and get Haiku running on it for those of us that want to explore Haiku. Being able to make our own system one day from this and that main board is fine but the Haiku platform will remain super small if that is all it caters to.

Heck, how about a Mac Mini… fairly cheap, millions of them, Intel based, we can have one known system out of the box that works with Haiku network and sound wise, etc…

I sure miss the BeBox days when you knew BeOS would run on the system you have.

TJ

Give it time. Haiku isn’t even in beta yet and so only hobbyists and BeOS enthusiasts are the only reasonable targets at this point. I totally agree that it has a ton of potential, but it’s just not fully baked yet. Once it gets closer to a real stable R1 release, I’m sure you’ll see quite a few people giving it a long, hard look with ideas like yours in mind. :slight_smile:

You can see at history of other OSes, like Linux, BSD, Solaris, or nowadays, Minix, etc. All them suffered or suffer from weak hardware support. Generic drivers are welcome to start off, but for long run each piece of hardware have to be fully supported.

THIS IS RESPONSIBILITY OF HARDWARE PROVIDERS.

As Haiku is Alpha and not used widely, no hardware manufacturer provides a single driver for Haiku. Even in land of FreeBSD - a solid OS - a nVidia graphics driver (for instance) needs “linux” module to be loaded, which makes me believe it’s rather Linux driver that runs on FreeBSD in Linux compatible mode.
And on topic of drivers porting from other OSes. Many specialized drivers are closed-source, so there is no way to legally port them to Haiku.

So far there have been five major models of Intel Mac Mini, each with several variants that would affect their compatibility with Haiku. A new model typically lasts 6-18 months, after that you can’t buy one from Apple because it has been superseded.

But really the larger problem is, what does it mean for hardware to be “supported” in this way ? When you get Haiku “running” on a Mac Mini, does that mean it will have the correct screen mode for your 3rd party flat panel display or just a stretched default? Will all the video ports work, or just some? Can you record sound from a microphone? Will suspend and hibernate modes work? How about other power saving features? Does the wireless networking work reliably? Can you read your photos using the SDXC slot?

A user who has a Mac Mini will naturally expect most things to Just Work™ and Haiku can’t offer that. If anything I think Haiku would suffer more from this comparison than on a generic PC.

The most compatible Haiku system I have come across yet is … the VirtualBox emulator. It does need OSS installed, though.

There’s an opening there for someone: a minimal Linux installation that boots straight into a VirtualBox WM running Haiku. Optimized to lose as few CPU cycles as possible to the host system.

Just a thought, take it, leave it, whatever. Just remember where to send the royalty payments.

On Sat, 2010-12-04 at 04:08, I started a thread with the title “Score +1 for haiku” where I described the success I had with upgrading from an Intel D945GCLF2 mobo which worked perfectly with haiku to a Intel D525MW which also works perfectly with haiku. Not that I want to be a salesperson for Intel but these Atom based motherboards are low cost (~$70-90) and only require at least on stick of memory ($20), a hard disk ($50) and a case with power supply ($40 w/o optical drive bay or $50 with). So for a little over US$200 plus shipping you can “roll your own” little Dual core 1.8Ghz Atom based box with 1Gb Ram and 160GB of hard disk ($20 more for 500GB). The web site where I got all the listed prices, mitxpc.com will even pre-assemble configurations for all sorts of specialist applications for a little extra.

So there’s your haiku box, 100% compatible starting from as low as $250 pre-assembled. It’s a little low powered, cant play 1080 HD movies but, with haiku if you’re just doing web browsing etc., who needs more power?

edit: By the way, I don’t know of any other OS that can make this platform feel as responsive as haiku does.

Alan

While I think that in theory this sounds like a good idea. In practice it is not really practical. Aros, also suffers from the same thing. A few enterprising people put together hardware, in some cases paid for driver development, and then sold them to the community as being Aros compatible. As Haiku matures this may be something for someone to do. Find a supported PC/laptop and then offer them to the community with Haiku pre-installed.

[quote=6foot3]On Sat, 2010-12-04 at 04:08, I started a thread with the title “Score +1 for haiku” where I described the success I had with upgrading from an Intel D945GCLF2 mobo which worked perfectly with haiku to a Intel D525MW which also works perfectly with haiku. Not that I want to be a salesperson for Intel but these Atom based motherboards are low cost (~$70-90) and only require at least on stick of memory ($20), a hard disk ($50) and a case with power supply ($40 w/o optical drive bay or $50 with). So for a little over US$200 plus shipping you can “roll your own” little Dual core 1.8Ghz Atom based box with 1Gb Ram and 160GB of hard disk ($20 more for 500GB). The web site where I got all the listed prices, mitxpc.com will even pre-assemble configurations for all sorts of specialist applications for a little extra.

So there’s your haiku box, 100% compatible starting from as low as $250 pre-assembled. It’s a little low powered, cant play 1080 HD movies but, with haiku if you’re just doing web browsing etc., who needs more power?

Alan[/quote]

Alan, or anyone else, is there another Mini ITX board like this one that offers faster minimum dual cpu, say in the 2.x range, or even a quad if they make such a thing, that has the same basic specs as this Intel D525MW? One that can handle the 1080HD Movies?

If I am going to do this, I want to get the most power I can, buy once and use for a long time, 1st time around.

When I think BeOS, or Haiku, I think Multimedia PC, and not being able to do 1080 HD is not cool. hehehe

TJ

Alan, can you confirm for me that your setup below (I take it you have one just like it) works with Haiku on all the basics such as:

Boots Haiku Alpha R3 (current one)
Sound In & Out
Video Out
Ethernet
USB Keyboard
USB Mouse

I may just get a little system like this to get me started for daily use and getting more into Haiku.

Thanks

TJ

[quote=6foot3]On Sat, 2010-12-04 at 04:08, I started a thread with the title “Score +1 for haiku” where I described the success I had with upgrading from an Intel D945GCLF2 mobo which worked perfectly with haiku to a Intel D525MW which also works perfectly with haiku. Not that I want to be a salesperson for Intel but these Atom based motherboards are low cost (~$70-90) and only require at least on stick of memory ($20), a hard disk ($50) and a case with power supply ($40 w/o optical drive bay or $50 with). So for a little over US$200 plus shipping you can “roll your own” little Dual core 1.8Ghz Atom based box with 1Gb Ram and 160GB of hard disk ($20 more for 500GB). The web site where I got all the listed prices, mitxpc.com will even pre-assemble configurations for all sorts of specialist applications for a little extra.

So there’s your haiku box, 100% compatible starting from as low as $250 pre-assembled. It’s a little low powered, cant play 1080 HD movies but, with haiku if you’re just doing web browsing etc., who needs more power?

edit: By the way, I don’t know of any other OS that can make this platform feel as responsive as haiku does.

Alan[/quote]

macsociety,

As far as your initial reply goes, point taken. The essential point I wanted to make is that haiku on this particular platform spanks every other OS I have used on it by a large margin. Same thing for other hardware.

I have just completed the installation of a quad boot setup for a 500gb HD, Intel DH67GD motherboard with a core i5 2500. I installed all the software using the Intel D945GCLF2 mobo since the boot disc (boot-132) and retail (bought, leopard) install disk I use for my hackintosh setup is for that board. Of course, when I transferred the HD to the DH67GD board, I had to re-install Windows 7 but Ubuntu booted up as did haiku and surprisingly enough Mac OS X. Now if we could get sound working on that mobo, it could probably play more than a couple 1080 movies at the same time!

As far as confirming that a particular motherboard works, the Intel D945GCLF2 does all the basics but that board has been superseded by the D510MW and more recently the D525MW. My situation was an original instal to the D945GCLF2 and then replacement of the mobo. I have not been able to get my specially prepared usb sticks (ubuntu plus haiku with the grub bootloader) to boot haiku on the D525MW. I tried the anyboot setup this morning and got the same result, a dialog pops up asking me to “select boot volume” but not showing any boot volumes. I will try the raw image written directly to the flash drive using the linux/bsd/unix dd command and let you know if that works. If that doesn’t work my last resort would be to burn the ISO to a CD and try that.

Alan

I know this sound strange but I have had a number of machines that will not boot, and that includes the ‘no boot partition’ message that were fixed by adding a VESA file into the config settings.

Look to: https://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/vesa_file_fixing_boot_problem

It just may help.

Agreed to some degree. :sunglasses:

I wanted it bad enough so checked out all the forum threads and found a small Zotac that “should” have worked for Haiku. Did the deed, purchased it this last weekend, and now running Haiku R1 Alpha 3 as we speak.

But… for most people… if they are going to try something, most will not be like me and keep barking up a tree until I get my dinner. I like BeOS and wanted Haiku to work so finally spent some cash on what I thought would work and it did.

Average Joe Blow though is not going to go this extra mile and just try Haiku once, if it fails to run, off they go.

For Haiku to expand down the road and get tons of users, this experience should be improved upon to give the “best” chances of gaining new happy Haiku users.

TJ

If you want something bad enough you can make it happen, eh? Ive got 3 desktop systems that all run BeOS and Haiku perfectly. The most recent one is a 2005 L7VMM3 Athlon Xp. Also have a HP laptop that has everything working. Even wireless. Its a Pavillion dv6433cl that I use a USB drive to run Haiku on. The way BeOS folks used to do it was search the Hardware Compatibility Database and then buy a system based on that. Since Haiku has a HC database, its just as easy. Complaining about the brand new kit you just bought thats super fast but wont boot Haiku is silly. Drivers dont write themselves and Haiku runs very well on limited hardware.

We should probably remove this thread to the Off Topic area…but anyway. I’m not sure that Haiku’s devs expect or want to “take over the world”. Theres advantages and disadvantages to being a boutique OS. Being BSD flavored, Haiku is relatively secure compared to “mainstream” OS’es. Using Haiku is much like driving a BMW 2002. Its responsive, small and quick. But since you seem to want Haiku to prosper…the surest way is to fund “bounties”. Jus Sayin :slight_smile:

Yup, agreed, in fact the bounty I mentioned in a real old thread, probably a year ago, was that we all should put in $50 or something so the team Haiku could buy a system that they feel will run Haiku on all cylinders so they could put a stamp of approval, say once a year, on a system that will just work, no guessing for us commoners. I think that was the gist of my message.

Back then and even today I would have no problem putting in some $, once a year in fact, for something like this to happen.

Of course I have no idea how one could start a bounty to this affect.

I just think it is a good idea, especially how close and far Haiku has come, to have at least one modern system per year they, the testers can have in their hands, a common over the counter system that is made in the hundreds of thousands or millions that can have a “stamp of approval” from the Haiku Team on a system that non pc techy people can buy to run Haiku on.

Just my opinion is all and take it for what it is.

And about what thread this should be in, is this not a general Haiku discussion area. Are we not talking Haiku here on ideas or thoughts about Haiku. Maybe I am wrong but it seems a good place for it. The Off Topic as you state is for:

"Off Topic
Are you a social outcast / oddball? Have no one else to talk to about all of the important issues going on in the world? If you answered “yes” then this is the forum for you! "

Not a section for Haiku discussion in my opinion and I think general is where most folks would put something like this and more techy questions in the user support threads.

TJ

Once R1 is complete, Haiku Inc ought to get into some sort of deal with a PC Manufacturer (obviously not Dell or HP, but up and comers like Fujitsu) who might help to promote and advertise Haiku and even preload it on some of their PC’s. Once we get into beta phase we will need the support of hardware manufacturers who can make drivers for their products.