Hey, for an OS speed isn’t the only thing. There are other things that make an OS good, aesthetics, ease, easy scripting, effects and all other nice things.
nickjw wrote:
Hey, for an OS speed isn't the only thing. There are other things that make an OS good, aesthetics, ease, easy scripting, effects and all other nice things.
BeOS has good aestethics, whatever your macloving mind thinks; Bash and Hey give all the scriptability needed, effects just suck - physically suck and suck CPU power…
Well… the BEOS-desktop is beautiful as far as I’m concerned. And the mac-look … naah… not something I want, though I admit the MAC-UI is kind of cool. (I’ve used mac a lot some earlier in life… and they are not bad. Not at all)
Effects when doing something, animations when moving or deleting files and animations when minimizing windows? Forget it. I hate that. At least it should not be the default behaviour for the system, and actually incorporating it into the code seems to be a lot of wasted code and wasted time, IMHO. But I’m not religious about it, as long as it is not the default behaviour. Just like skinning, I can live with that, as long as I don’t have to use it 
well, about effect, i specially like the LoonCraz Tracker for that (PhOS). It scales when close or Minimize/maximise it. It’s a small thing, not hungry in power … could be added as an option(like zSnake in Zeta), so you would be free to use it or not.
beosfrance wrote:
NO!! The scaling window effect is one of the worst "features" in PhOS. It made me switch back to R5 in a couple of hours.
well, about effect, i specially like the LoonCraz Tracker for that (PhOS). It scales when close or Minimize/maximise it. It's a small thing, not hungry in power ... could be added as an option(like zSnake in Zeta), so you would be free to use it or not.
bogomipz wrote:
beosfrance wrote:NO!! The scaling window effect is one of the worst "features" in PhOS. It made me switch back to R5 in a couple of hours.well, about effect, i specially like the LoonCraz Tracker for that (PhOS). It scales when close or Minimize/maximise it. It's a small thing, not hungry in power ... could be added as an option(like zSnake in Zeta), so you would be free to use it or not.
Heh… rest assured. bogomipz.
Haiku R1 is not going to have any lame eyecandy, as far as I’ve understood. And I’m sure R2 will have the possibility to run without all those “fancy” CPU-consuming and user-annoying habits
Effects should be:
Minimizing, app gets sucked in.
Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin.
Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin.
Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff.
Moving, the program jumps.
compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps.
Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up
Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.
nickjw wrote:
Effects should be: Minimizing, app gets sucked in. Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin. Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin. Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff. Moving, the program jumps. compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps. Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.
Exactly what makes me scream in windoze :evil:
At least none of these animations should be default behaviour.
The default should be NOT to animate, and require the user to put it ON before any such cpu-sucking and work-slowing eek’ies starts to mess it up 
Maybe AOL will fork Haiku at some point to have their very own OS. Then you’ll probably get more eye candy than you ever asked for
nickjw wrote:
Effects should be: Minimizing, app gets sucked in. Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin. Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin. Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff. Moving, the program jumps. compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps. Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.
All ugly, pointless, CPU sucking crap
Go use Linux. Not a suggestion, an order. You want a slow, ugly, CPU sucking, eyecandy peice of shite, go use Linux.
MYOB wrote:
nickjw wrote:Effects should be: Minimizing, app gets sucked in. Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin. Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin. Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff. Moving, the program jumps. compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps. Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.All ugly, pointless, CPU sucking crap
Go use Linux. Not a suggestion, an order. You want a slow, ugly, CPU sucking, eyecandy peice of shite, go use Linux.
Or Windows… it’s even worse - especially using windowsblinds and stuff like that…
Linux at least responds immediately ( though linux does respond in steps (when using the obnoxious X Window server )… windows is slow responding, but smooth(er) )
Let’s hope Haiku will be fast responding and smooth - and no cpu.sucking crap… but at least there is going to be none or very little eyecandy in Haiku R1 … but maybe in R2, but I’m sure this will be optional. Those who want an impaired performance can choose so, and the rest of us can just relax.
And damn… that linux desktop really needs some optimizing… oh damn
Mr.Jones wrote:
Agreed.nickjw wrote:Effects should be: Minimizing, app gets sucked in. Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin. Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin. Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff. Moving, the program jumps. compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps. Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.Exactly what makes me scream in windoze :evil:
At least none of these animations should be default behaviour.
The default should be NOT to animate, and require the user to put it ON before any such cpu-sucking and work-slowing eek’ies starts to mess it up
An OS doesn’t need to look “pretty”. You do not (I hope) stare at the OS GUI, watching how files get thrown in the bin, and how applications jump around for entertainment…
Unless I forgot something, an OS needs functionality, security, stability, speed, and must be easy to use – an OS does not need to look “cool” to be a good OS. I think it would be wise to leave all eye candy for the things that will run on the OS, like games and whatnot.
Also, adding support for features such as those described above sounds like added complexity. I personally think that complexity should be avoided whenever possible – would it be a good idea to release a different build for people who want the eye candy, as a different edition of Haiku? ââ¬ÅHaiku Standard Editionââ¬Â and ââ¬ÅHaiku EyeCandy Editionââ¬Â. 
:shock: Every consumed brain cell, every fused neuron from every HAIKU developer, should fundaMentally() Be dedicated to the optimisation, speed, and stability of HAIKU.
Performance is the way forward :arrow:
Whoever likes the nicities can have them as addons. Much the same way as with Windows and Windowblinds and the like. The only difference is, for HAIKU it shall be much better: eyecandy addons can be much more effective and efficient in HAIKU since it is open source, there will not be any moronic, inefficient and bloated code to make do with. Instead, resource-munching addons can be seamlessly integrated into HAIKU in order to achive the best possible performance from resource hungry eyecandy.
In a nutshell; what has already been said in a few wise posts;
NO EYECANDY IN HAIKU
HOWEVER EYECANDY CAN BE INSTALLED BY USERS
IN NO WAY SHOULD HAIKU CONSIDER ACCOMODATING EYECANDY
HAIKU MUST BE COMPACT AND EFFICIENT
Thank you.
Utterly ridiculous. You’re all talking from the perspective that effects == poor performance when you’re all quite aware that the reason Windows (for example) slows down when performing effects is due to bad coding within the o/s. You want a ‘media o/s’ which, by dint of its name, is aimed at the ‘cooler’ (i.e. mac) end of the market. You don’t give people nice eye candy, they’ll respond by not using Haiku.
Could we not have an o/s that is intelligent? For example, it will know how many CPUs the computer its running on has, what speed they are, how much memory it has, etc. It can then enable extra eye-candy features based on the end power available. Of course, the user will have final vetoe over which effects they want, but at least they’ll be available.
For example: I have R5 running on a Pentium II 350MHz single cpu machine so, naturally, I’d rather not have Mac-style effects going on. However, I also have a Pentium 4 PC that supports hyper-threading, it has two 120GB hard-disks in it, and 1GB of RAM. I would like to install Haiku on it and have nice eye-candy effects. You may say ‘let someone write it as an additional component’ - well, yes, that’s fair enough - in response I would say ‘make sure there are suitable hooks into the api to allow someone to do this’.
C’mon guys - it’s not 1998 anymore, the PC hardware world has moved on significantly, it’s about time your thinking caught up with it.
For the record, I run Windows XP on the P4 machine I mentioned above, with themeing enabled (uxtheme patched) and I notice zero slow down on it.
Mr.Jones wrote:
MYOB wrote:nickjw wrote:Effects should be: Minimizing, app gets sucked in. Exiting, peogram screw up an lands in bin. Deleteing, file gets sucked into bin. Bin emptied, a balck hole deletes stuff. Moving, the program jumps. compying, the file divides like a cell and one bit jumps. Menu dropping down/up - rolls down/up Shuttdong down, screen rolls up and lands in the bin.All ugly, pointless, CPU sucking crap
Go use Linux. Not a suggestion, an order. You want a slow, ugly, CPU sucking, eyecandy peice of shite, go use Linux.
Or Windows… it’s even worse - especially using windowsblinds and stuff like that…
Linux at least responds immediately ( though linux does respond in steps (when using the obnoxious X Window server )… windows is slow responding, but smooth(er) )
Let’s hope Haiku will be fast responding and smooth - and no cpu.sucking crap… but at least there is going to be none or very little eyecandy in Haiku R1 … but maybe in R2, but I’m sure this will be optional. Those who want an impaired performance can choose so, and the rest of us can just relax.
And damn… that linux desktop really needs some optimizing… oh damn
Actually, the themes run better with Windowblinds than with XP’s default engine. The default engine uses over 20 Mb of ram, while the WindowBlinds one uses 5. This shows that you can code something some eye candy without harming the performance very much, but I agree that it would not be good to have something like that built into Haiku. It would be better to have it seperate.
There should be some optional effects, just dont overdo it. BTW, wouldnt an engine like Apple’s quartz extream help reduce CPU usage from effects and transparentsies?
Well I always liked the look of BeOS so I’d hope that Haiku has the same clean look. As for eye candy can’t some “eye candy” actually improve ease of use and user experience? PCs are now so powerful a few helpful effects aren’t going to slow anything down.
Lets just keep form following function.
Users aren’t going to want an OS that looks and feels 1995 but a clean slick usable OS – can’t wait.
There is something to be said for eye candy.
It’s not just candy. If properly used they are good visual cues.
Any good UI must have visual cues.
I do have to say a few things:
First of all I think it is important to respect the devision between userspace and kernel (or system) space when aproaching this argument. The statement
Quote:
Go use Linux. Not a suggestion, an order. You want a slow, ugly, CPU sucking, eyecandy peice of shite, go use Linux.
is misguided. Linux, strictly speaking, has very little eye-candy. In fact the only graphic capabilities linux has are to put an image on a framebuffer, while that is a little inefficient I have to say I think the little tux when I boot up my computer is cute. 
It is important to note that these effects are not (an should never be) an intrinsic aspect of an OS. When you install suse or redhat, for example, you are not seeing linux act slow and inefficient you are seeing what the linux distrobution packagers want linux to look & feel like for a new user. This case does demonstrate the desire of many that have posed here about default settings. I use gentoo exclusively as my linux distrobution and that means that I compile everything from scratch, I can guarentee that I include -zero- bull crap animations (I also use gnome which makes a point of being clean and crisp).
With that said, I am on the fence: I don’t know if I can say that in a perfect world I would prefer for Haiku (or BeOS) to have no effects. I know for myself that I wouldn’t use them (A window or application opening nearly instantaneously is more impressive for me) but I think that some (tactful) animations would be something that could draw more usershare. The conflict here is that many users that would like to have said animations are not likely to go rifling through the prefrences to find said animations… So maybe they should be enabled by default, and who are we kidding, if you didn’t like the eye candy it’s not like the prefrences are difficult to manage; a trained monkey can probably be a master over their BeOS environment.
I figure if I don’t like it, I’ll roll my own. That’ll be the day.
I find that when using something as different as BeOS is, all previous conceptions about graphics and such are swept out of the window and I start with a clean slate. I find that I learn new methods and tools so much faster if I take the quirks as is, and the (supposed) lack of an element fails to bother me.
Glitz and glamour aren’t important when the lights go out.