Preaching to the converted

I’m sorry if this upsets anyone, but there is no point in trying to market an incomplete product.

As at this moment, the project is still in Alpha status, not even Beta!

When it can install itself, configure wifi, & get online with the minimum of fuss, THEN is the time to do a big push.

I like the project, otherwise I wouldn’t be here, but it needs to be working properly before ‘Joe Public’ will even bother trying it.

I would say you are 95% right.

Put this in the hands of the general public and they will not know how to use it for their needs.

However, if they already have someone who knows Haiku available it can make for a light OS for some projects/displays/limited public facing hardware.

Personally, all my photos are hosted under Haiku, the search features are far better than the base Windows 7/8 support, and every time I look at the photo programs for Windows they turn out to be hard to use once I go over 32K-64K in numbers of pictures. BeOS to the latest Haiku have never given me problems.

PS. I am not saying Windows can’t do the job, but the free programs out there that I have used for Windows are horrible with large numbers of photos, and the ones you pay for have no refunds if you don’t like the program so I have not tried them. Haiku works great so why bother?

haiku already does those three things. “alpha” and “beta” are arbitrary – set by each individual project’s goals. stability is there, usability is there, it just happens that this project’s stated goals are lofty as hell compared to any other operating system (expectations of open source projects are, ten times out of ten, a lot higher than those of commercial proprietary projects). haiku already does what desktop linux did in 2010 – twenty years after linux’ first release – after half the development time and with a fraction of the active development, yet in 2010 nobody was calling linux a beta anything. remember also, google’s gmail was in beta for Years, and before its public beta was in an invite-only private beta that was already regarded as the best free email system on the internet. version numbers don’t mean anything absolute, and that includes alpha and beta.

back to that original point, haiku currently configures wifi and goes online with minimal effort, and its installer is quick and painless. exceptions to the criteria you’ve stated (not criteria which i share – i already have machines for browsing the web) have been consistently diminishing with the continued work of the dev team.

Ha. Plug in your USB headset, and your web cam, and make a Skype video call to a friend.

Plug in a DVB tuner on one machine, and then multicast stream the video to some other machines over IPv6.

I’m working from real examples of the right era, but you can more or less make these up yourself, just pick any of the huge range of hardware that worked fine on Linux systems back then but still doesn’t work in Haiku, and use it with any of the wide range of software that’s not available for or can’t work on Haiku, and you have a multi-pronged example of how far Haiku falls short in this ill-advised comparison.

i can’t say a thing about dvb (never touched the stuff), but these two things definitely weren’t working when i started using linux fulltime in early 2010. nor was wifi without first using a wired connection to download the proper driver – and even then, not in any of the major distributions if the wireless nic was broadcom or atheros.

i can’t say a thing about dvb (never touched the stuff), but these two things definitely weren’t working when i started using linux fulltime in early 2010. nor was wifi without first using a wired connection to download the proper driver – and even then, not in any of the major distributions if the wireless nic was broadcom or atheros.[/quote]

snip I didn’t read properly.

good luck with that, hopefully the webcam the network stack and Skype actually run, which usually requires significant tweaking of config files , if it works at all.

[quote]
Plug in a DVB tuner on one machine, and then multicast stream the video to some other machines over IPv6.[/quote]

on if your DVB tuner is supported, many are not.

[quote]
I’m working from real examples of the right era, but you can more or less make these up yourself, just pick any of the huge range of hardware that worked fine on Linux systems back then but still doesn’t work in Haiku, and use it with any of the wide range of software that’s not available for or can’t work on Haiku, and you have a multi-pronged example of how far Haiku falls short in this ill-advised comparison.[/quote]

ok sounds great in theory, not so good in practice.

For lots of people this stuff was all working with their Linux system in 2010. Doesn’t work on Haiku today, won’t for the foreseeable future. That’s a refutation of your claim that Haiku “already does” what desktop Linux did in 2010. Saying vaguely that “two things” (out of the three in that example) were supposedly not working for you in particular is neither here nor there.

And there are a LOT of these examples. I’ve written before about how hard it is to get from just barely working to a state where all the niceties of the hardware are giving the user their intended benefit, it’s a huge effort and Haiku hasn’t really begun it.

For lots of people this stuff was all working with their Linux system in 2010.[/quote]
“lots of people” is a very ambiguous term. anecdotally, these things not working kept everyone else i knew not using linux and instead slogging through all their problems with windows. statistically, at <1% market share (http://royal.pingdom.com/2010/08/10/failure-of-linux-to-grab-1-percent-of-desktop-os-market/), there just weren’t lots of people for anything in linux to work for. usage has doubled since then, to <2% (Usage share of operating systems - Wikipedia). so, more specificity than “lots of people”, please. and then, if you could provide some documentation that these things worked, and how they worked – steps taken to run any of it, as well as what hardware was actually supported.

So to be clear - for you “lots” has to refer to at least … millions and perhaps tens of millions of people? You will struggle with this strange way of understanding, nobody else uses the word that way.

After this length of time you might find it hard to get Skype to confirm what was and wasn’t working in 2010, and I understand that you have (rather rudely) decided you’re not content with my word that video chat worked, but here are plenty of people writing about this issue in their blogs, here’s an example, not from a friend just the first result of a simple Google search as you could have easily done yourself.

Unfortunately USB headsets aren’t very visual, so here’s somebody asking how they can use their headset with Skype back in 2010 (you will see the answer is very simple, although subsequently Skype was improved to offer this within the application itself as you’d expect).

In terms of hardware, most x86 Linux PCs from that era would run Skype, the headset would presumably be an ordinary USB audio headset, and the web cam could be a UVC standards compliant USB camera. How would a consumer know if they had a UVC compliant camera? Easy, Microsoft’s logo programme only authorised UVC compliant cameras, so if you bought something in the Windows logo programme (e.g. saying “Compatible with Windows Vista” or Windows 7), that camera should be fine. By 2010 you’d have struggled to find a webcam that didn’t have the logo in any computer store. A lot of older webcams were supported too, but this hardly seems like the place to make a list.

It was very nice of Microsoft to make things easier in this way, of course it also helped them to deliver a consistent experience to all web cam owners in Vista, which was why they did it.

Getting there was a bunch of work. That work had been done in Linux by 2010, in Haiku nobody has really made a decent start on it. It might take months, or years, but first of all it would have to start and it hasn’t.

“lots” is definitely more than a circle of linux bloggers who all reference each other’s work.

[quote]After this length of time you might find it hard to get Skype to confirm what was and wasn’t working in 2010, and I understand that you have (rather rudely) decided you’re not content with my word that video chat worked, but here are plenty of people writing about this issue in their blogs, here’s an example, not from a friend just the first result of a simple Google search as you could have easily done yourself.

http://playingwithsid.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/skype-video-chat-on-ubuntu-1004-lucid.html[/quote]

[quote]Downloaded and extracted the compressed archive to /opt/skype-version location on both the computers.

First I faced few issues with my external web camera (see LP #502866). Starting skype with following command fixed this issue. LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libv4l/v4l1compat.so /opt/skype-2.1.0.81/skype [/quote]
extracting to root and starting from the command line with custom options is not “works for lots of people”.

[quote]Unfortunately USB headsets aren’t very visual, so here’s somebody asking how they can use their headset with Skype back in 2010 (you will see the answer is very simple, although subsequently Skype was improved to offer this within the application itself as you’d expect).

that’s a lot closer to “works for lots of people” but still isn’t there.

if a user must use the command line to launch an application with a custom command, or look up an application for something as simple as configuring sound (which is still the case, now, in kubuntu 14.04, when using bluetooth), the average user will simply stop at the point of nothing working. extracting to root is an action requiring root privileges, and for anybody picking up linux, especially one of the mainstream distros, it is often (and rightly) recommended that people avoid messing around in root until they know what they are doing. so – didn’t work.

i’ll grant you a webcam, sure.

[quote=spinach]
“lots” is definitely more than a circle of linux bloggers who all reference each other’s work.[/quote]

You wanted evidence of people using this, now you’re pretending the presented evidence is the sum total of all the users. That’s extremely disingenuous.

[quote]
extracting to root and starting from the command line with custom options is not “works for lots of people”.[/quote]

In that post they’re running a Beta to try out a new feature, even back in 2010 the release versions of Skype were of course delivered as packages and started from a nice Skype icon.

People don’t tend to write blog posts about how they ran a release version of something and it works just fine. They write about how they had problems, what they did about the problems, what workarounds they came up with, that sort of thing. It’s the same for any topic. You can find plenty of blog entries about Haiku that involve fiddling with boot options, trying different USB sticks, and so on, for the same reason.

As much as I love Haiku, this is nonsense. Just software-wise, Haiku is way behind that of ‘desktop Linux 2010’, certainly that can be mitigated to a huge extent with ports of existing FOSS software, but those ports need to be done.

When it comes to hardware support, Haiku is likewise far behind ‘desktop Linux 2010’ and further behind ‘desktop Linux 2014’, however as you made note of, Haiku doesn’t have anything near the development resources available to the Linux ecosystem so it’s not as if the situation is unexpected.

As for Skype, if that is what is required to cater to the desktop users then Haiku is dead in the water, as there’s no chance in hell Microsoft will ever find Haiku a suitable target for a Skype-port.

Thankfully there are other options, like WebRTC which is fully open and can be ported and thus supported on Haiku.

Personally I think that a lack of software is the big achilles heel for Haiku as it is now, PulkoMandy is working hard on providing a good browser which will go a long way in making Haiku suitable for typical day to day work, but of course there are lots of other software which is ‘only’ a port away and would make Haiku so much more attractive to end users, for my personal needs I’d love to see Inkscape and Blender (the latter which of course would be quite crippled without accelerated 3d support, in turn a hardware support issue), and user ‘X’ will likely have other needs like perhaps LibreOffice etc.

But porting these projects is seldom a simple task, many of them rely on foreign *nix based toolkits which would either have to be ported or (preferably I suppose) reimplemented by using Haiku’s native toolkits, and again Haiku lacks developers, and not just when compared against that of the Linux ecosystem, actually I find it amazing that so few developers and porters have been able to get Haiku and it’s software availability this far, hats off to you.

I hope and believe that package management will make more developers/tinkerers consider Haiku as a system to try ‘for real’ rather than just boot up in a vm and play around with for a couple of minutes, atleast most of my *nix buddies to whom I’ve introduced Haiku just won’t consider it a workable system without such functionality.

Also, as someone who just can’t motivate myself to program in C++ on my spare-time, I’m very happy to see Go on Haiku as a GSOC project, here’s hoping it will be completed and that we’ll see bindings to the native Haiku toolkit for it.

I see Haiku as being amongst the most beautiful, colorful flowers in the garden patch, softly undulating in the breeze, awaiting the first of the C++ app coders lucky enough to alight on it.

The devs are doing all the low level stuff, and being very finicky about it, making Haiku the best “alpha” software I’ve ever seen. Really, most alpha software does not run a sufficient time between crashes to be usable. And Haiku - I use regularly. As one dev said, it’s all really arbitrary, and they’ve set the bar higher than most others.

Yet - it seems a great opportunity, for the app devs to come in their great masses. All those supposedly missing items (needed to make Haiku the equivalent of LInux/2010) are the parts and pieces of that opportunity. WIth Haiku, there’s a great base to build on, so I think it’ll eventually happen. Perhaps the ARM port (now a GSOC project) will in time be seen as a pretty decent alternative to Android or Linux in the mobile arena.

As far as all the gadget drivers go, I’m the perennial minimalist, and don’t use them. So, from my perpective, Haiku is not far from Linux/2010. All our perspectives are different.

[quote=NoHaikuForMe][quote=spinach]
“lots” is definitely more than a circle of linux bloggers who all reference each other’s work.[/quote]

You wanted evidence of people using this, now you’re pretending the presented evidence is the sum total of all the users. That’s extremely disingenuous.[/quote]
i’m not – you said something about me defining “lots” as millions of users, i shot back a quip about dozens of bloggers. hyperbole meeting hyperbole. what’s disingenuous is presenting a solution requiring root access to the filesystem and the launch of a program with a custom script as a solution that works for the average user.

[quote=spinach]
i’m not – you said something about me defining “lots” as millions of users[/quote]

You can you read that exchange for yourself, I can’t take responsibility for what you wrote. You’re the one who brought up the idea that 1% of the market (ie millions of people) shouldn’t be considered lots, I only mentioned it to emphasise how nonsensical that is.

You shot back… at your own hyperbole as you’ve chosen to call it? Why? Do you often find yourself punching mirrors too?

I refer you to the rest of the comment you’re replying to. Ordinary (non-Beta) Skype packages were supplied in nice friendly packages. It does seem odd that you’re so anxious to suggest that “root access to the filesystem” isn’t acceptable for “the average user” when you’re advocating Haiku, you might to look into that a bit more closely.

i’ve been using haiku for about a year, how much more closely need i look?

[quote=spinach]
i’ve been using haiku for about a year, how much more closely need i look?[/quote]

He is most likely referring to the fact that when you use Haiku you are doing so as ‘root’, in other words with full permissions, this of course includes any actions using the file system.

ah, okay. yeah, pm haiku doesn’t allow total access to the filesystem and pre-pm there wasn’t an explicit warning against messing around in the system folder, nor was there much occasion to (a notable exception being the oss audio fix).