Porting rpm to haiku?

haiku needs some form of executable file or package. something like windows’ msi or rpm/apt-get. in macos there are dmg files. it would be nice to have something like that for haiku.

is is possible to port rpm to haiku?

since haiku is based on beos, and beos is posix compliant, it might just work. i know befs is somewhat simmilar to ext2fs so permissions are there. except that in beos there is only one user “baron”.

fanton wrote:
haiku needs some form of executable file or package. something like windows' msi or rpm/apt-get. in macos there are dmg files. it would be nice to have something like that for haiku.

is is possible to port rpm to haiku?

since haiku is based on beos, and beos is posix compliant, it might just work. i know befs is somewhat simmilar to ext2fs so permissions are there. except that in beos there is only one user “baron”.

Its portable. Its pointless. BeOS is too unlike UNIX for porting out of the UNIX package managers. Someones already working on a system anyway.

rpm+yum or urpmi is also utter arse compared to dpkg+apt-get.

any of those combinations is good, as long as it allows a huge repository of ported programs to install in a easy way.

i’m used to yum and rpm (i especially like yum update yum command :)) but i don’t mind debian’s apt-get.

i’m very happy you guys thought about it. software repository is the future. and makes it very easy to distribute patches/updates to the os.

whenever i use linux if i’m missing something i just type yum install “whatever” yum can install even .so library files.

i can’t wait to use haiku :smiley:

Linux package managers, while appropriate for Linux, have no place in the realms of BeOS. It would be similar to having a ricer’s tricked-out Honda Civic street racer at a Corvette show - totally out of place. There are already plans in the works to use packages which are in the style of MacOS packages. If, for some reason, that those don’t work out (which I doubt), I worked on a package system (that is mostly finished) that would work well, too, that is very BeOS-like in spirit.

DarkWyrm wrote:
Linux package managers, while appropriate for Linux, have no place in the realms of BeOS. It would be similar to having a ricer's tricked-out Honda Civic street racer at a Corvette show - totally out of place. There are already plans in the works to use packages which are in the style of MacOS packages. If, for some reason, that those don't work out (which I doubt), I worked on a package system (that is mostly finished) that would work well, too, that is very BeOS-like in spirit.

And for those interested in the discussions, here is a link to the Glass Elevator Summaries Wiki page:
http://ge.blubinc.com/index.php/Installer
It’s incomplete and maybe too complex, but that is what we were discussing and it should give everyone an idea of our standpoint.

Hi, thank you.

Dragging and dropping to install is stupid. Takes away the pleasure of installing apps. In windows when I install something I keep clicking Next then just before Finish usually there is a nice graphic or something as a reward (or the readme.txt file).

We could have a bard or sorcerer in Haiku (to keep with the tradition).

Or better “yum install pogram”

fanton wrote:
Hi, thank you.

Dragging and dropping to install is stupid. Takes away the pleasure of installing apps. In windows when I install something I keep clicking Next then just before Finish usually there is a nice graphic or something as a reward (or the readme.txt file).

We could have a bard or sorcerer in Haiku (to keep with the tradition).

Or better “yum install pogram”

Eh, have you ever actually used BeOS?

One of the best things about BeOS, and Mac OS X, is that you don’t have some fecking stupid installer that requires fifteen minutes of user interaction to install something, or requires a “package manager” or a trip to the shell. Unzip, drag, done. Thats how you install an app. Anything else is:

  1. Counterintuitive
  2. Pandering to Windows users, pointlessly
  3. Too complex for most Windows users, ironically.

I have used Zeta. I don’t want to use BeOS because is too old.

But i have used Windows and Linux, and I must say Software Valet sucks soo much. I like Windows’s slow way of installing using a lot of Nexts which is HIGHLY intuitive because it has been this way for a dozen year i guess. Linux has Druids so its’a a standard now.

I disagree with you. I never used MacOS but from what i’ve heard it sucks big time.

Windows is very popular because is an imperfect broken OS that works everywhere with a crash once in a while. It’s like a kid, you need to feed it, take care of it, customize, press a lot of NEXTs. MacOS is a smartass. MacOS on the contrary does things the stupid dumb way that makes people even care less. Plus MacOS only works with SOME devices. Linux is the best because you can reall feel what you did, what changed (transparent). I don’t think an OS should be a “black box” that makes thing happen and leave you stupider and stupider. How about making Haiku think for you? That would be the MacOS way!!!

I actually LOVE taking 15 minutes to customize my packages. Why not asking what other people think? Rather than dragging something and let MacOS deal with it. I want to be able to install the package with the modules I WANT, where I WANT and linkes to be called whatever I PLEASE. In linux you can partly do that, in MacOS no way, in Windows OH YEAH!!!

There is no pleasure in doing things your way only. I want to do things my stupid way too. And i really belive that a good OS is a broken os that works 90% of the time with 90% of things. Not 100% of the time with 5% of things out there (like Zeta or BeOS).

So yeah. there you have it :stuck_out_tongue: Hope i did not offend anybody.

[edit]
3. Too complex for most Windows users, ironically. you don’t mean that windows users are stupid comparing to linux/macos users, right?

fanton wrote:
Windows is very popular because is an imperfect broken OS that works everywhere with a crash once in a while. It's like a kid, you need to feed it, take care of it, customize, press a lot of NEXTs.

fanton, BeOS/Haiku strives for exactly the opposite. I will not talk for others, but I personally do not want my OS to crash, nor do I want to spend spend time and more time feeding and caring for an OS that crashes every one in a while. I do not want anything of that. I want my OS to just work.

So, please take no offense, but if what you want is a time-consuming OS that crashes every once and then, you will certainly have more fun with Windows. :slight_smile:

I do agree that it would be nice to be have a install destination option in valet packages.

Koki

fanton wrote:
But i have used Windows and Linux, and I must say Software Valet sucks soo much. I like Windows's slow way of installing using a lot of Nexts...

You said right thing - installing is sloooow. My games are installing ~45-60 minutes, but I just want to run them, not sit and wait! I just want to have programs on my machine, I don’t mind where they are on a disk. I just want to use programs, not play with installing them. MacOS way is good way. I would love Haiku, if it use bundles like MacOS. I can play with dependencies, when it is fast. So I think, that the best way would be dynamicaly linked programs (cause when you have bundle staticaly linked and when it use many libraries it can be few MB bigger than dynamicaly linked version).[/b]

koki wrote:
fanton, BeOS/Haiku strives for exactly the opposite. I will not talk for others, but I personally do not want my OS to crash,

I think there is a big conflict in following the BeOS (which is MacOS) spirit, or going “chaotic good” like Linux (because Linux is not really free, they force people to stary opensource freeware, it’s almost a dogma/religion).

Making everything like a “black box” would make you guys loose the experts and they are the oens who develop software and provide drivers for opensource.

See, if I have this WebCam and it doesn’t work i get annoyed. But if it works once in a while i am half happy which is good enough. Sometimes having the os crash is better than having a prefect blank os that contains 3 things. Plus the microkernel architecture is inherenlty more prone crash that a monolithic kernel like linux. Windows is a microkernel for example. THe crashing part is important, but having people using your os is THE MOST IMPORTANT!!! To do that you must do at least what half the people want (even if you yourself don’t like).

koki wrote:
I do agree that it would be nice to be have a install destination option in valet packages.

I agree with you :smiley:

michalg wrote:
You said right thing - installing is sloooow...
I agree that takes a long time!! I understand now what you mean by a bundle. I agree with you guys but you should have control though.
fanton wrote:
There is no pleasure in doing things your way only. I want to do things my stupid way too. And i really belive that a good OS is a broken os that works 90% of the time with 90% of things. Not 100% of the time with 5% of things out there (like Zeta or BeOS).

I think you’re seriously missing something here. An operating system’s job is to get out of the way and allow you to use your software.

What you’re probably looking for is badly designed/written software that takes work to install and use. I guarantee you will never cease to find this - so I think you’ll always be happy.

Just keep in mind that while you’re trying to use all that poorly written software that barely works, and takes hours to install and make functional, you will probably need access to the internet, a browser, maybe IRC, and email - a command shell, a decent text editor, maybe some development tools and a hex editor.

You will of course, just expect this “standard” software to work, and be there. Afterall, who wants to waste all that time making a text editor work when they could be trying to get some other poorly written app working that the user doesn’t really need to use - just play with for a day or two.

In other words:

Many people consider a computer to be a tool - they need it to do their job. When tools break, or require “maintenance” to make them work - they become substantially less useful.

Others consider computers to be a hobby - and these people find great pleasure in hacking around with them and spending lots of time “experiencing” what you describe.

Most people here will probably fall into both of those categories - but the end goal is to make the operating system useful for those who don’t have the time to screw around with it. It is open-source, afterall, so you can always go into the source and add a “random-crash” somewhere that gives you what you desire :wink:

You can also write your own packaging/installation tool and re-package every piece of software on bebits if you want using it… but don’t expect the people that are building Haiku to understand - the end goal is to have a simple, elegant system that does only what it needs to do and gets out of the way. It’s easier to start simple and add complexity later than it is to do the reverse.

I don’t want so start a religious fight :smiley:

All I say is build backdoors to allow people to do things diffrently. To see what works and what doesn’t you need to experiment.

And I agree with almost all you people are saying.

fanton wrote:
I like Windows's slow way of installing using a lot of Nexts which is HIGHLY intuitive because it has been this way for a dozen year i guess. Linux has Druids so its'a a standard now.

This is the point where you should ask yourself which OS can give you what you aim for. Haiku is definitely not Linux or Windows.
Haiku’s goal is to create an administration-free, easy to use, powerful OS (see our homepage). Apart from “powerful” this is the opposite of what Linux aims for. You won’t be happy with Haiku, so I suggest that you use Linux or Windows instead.

fanton wrote:
MacOS is a smartass. MacOS on the contrary does things the stupid dumb way that makes people even care less. Plus MacOS only works with SOME devices.

Didn’t you say that you never used MacOS?

fanton wrote:
Linux is the best because you can reall feel what you did, what changed (transparent). I don't think an OS should be a "black box" that makes thing happen and leave you stupider and stupider. How about making Haiku think for you? That would be the MacOS way!!!

We don’t want a black box. The Windows registry is a black box. Most of my friends think that the linux settings and scripts are a black box.
A black box is only so long a black box as you don’t know enough about it.

I think that it’s possible to make the OS simple enough that you can completely understand it without spending much time on learning. For example, by drag-n-drop installing you don’t have anything going on in the background and no hidden magic.
nothing to learn => no black box

fanton wrote:
There is no pleasure in doing things your way only. I want to do things my stupid way too. And i really belive that a good OS is a broken os that works 90% of the time with 90% of things. Not 100% of the time with 5% of things out there (like Zeta or BeOS).

It’s not like our goal is to do 5% of all the things out there. :slight_smile:
We are here because we share a common goal: We all think that simpler is better and we want to do 100% of the things that matter in the most efficient and simple way. From your point of view we might have gone nuts, but that’s what we think (and we are not alone).

The rest has already been said by other people.

fanton wrote:
Sometimes having the os crash is better than having a prefect blank os that contains 3 things. Plus the microkernel architecture is inherenlty more prone crash that a monolithic kernel like linux. Windows is a microkernel for example. THe crashing part is important, but having people using your os is THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!! To do that you must do at least what half the people want (even if you yourself don't like).

First, Windows (I’m just going to assume we’re talking post NT) is NOT a microkernel, it is a hybrid kernel. It shares some characterteristics with both schools of thought. Linux is a purely monolithic kernel. Just because Windows happens to be buggy and crash prone, and Linux is extremely stable, doesn’t really say anything about the inherent tendencies of either design. I believe that in the future, as performance of the average PC increases, pure microkernels will be more widely accepted. Most developers agree that microkernels are the more intelligent design; none are currently used widespread because of the involved overhead.

Haiku, like windows, takes elements from both types of kernel to balance ease of development, stability, and performance on current hardware. If I’m correct, NewOS (the kernel that was forked and has become Haiku’s kernel) was/is a purely microkernel design.

Finally, a lot of your comments seem to suggest that there is a relationship between stability of a system and its ability to run different software, and on lots of hardware. As if we somehow sacrifice hardware support and applications by concentrating on stability. Or, as if Windows has more applications because they don’t care about tracing down OS bugs.

The lack of apps and hardware support on Linux, BeOS, etc… is not somehow inversely related to buggyness. Striving to build a rock solid and stable system should most certainly be the goal of this project. Hardware support and software diversity are issues that must be tackled by the community. We need to both produce these things, and get software vendors excited enough about Haiku to develope drivers and applications themeselves.

Hi,
The relationship is this:
Don’t spend time making the system super stable. Spend equal amount of time improving stability and expanding the hardware support.

It usually takes you 20% of the time doing 80% of the work, and another 80% of the time doing 20% of the work :smiley: (Pareto’s law as I see it).

I want something like the skyos software store :slight_smile:

I’m really chuffed you’re going down Bundle route. It’s the only way!

A bit of a newbie question about another Mac feature. Is there a library system with built-in versioning that works like OS X Frameworks?

This thread highlights why Haiku is needed. I want a OS that is totally transparent in normal use, but totally open when I choose to open it.

Unfortunately, Fanton has hit the nail on the head with Linux. Some users will never want the system to be silent and transparent. Installing and configuring the lengthy, complicated way, is part of the joy. Anything else is seen as dumbing down.

Fanton - you can put app bundles anywhere in the filesystem you want, and call them anything you like (and there’s no hardcoded paths that will break when you move it!). They work transparently UNTIL you open them. And then you’ll find XML config files, icons files, language localisation. All sorts for you to go in and configure to your heart’s content. You really need to spend time with a Mac to see why it’s the right thing.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris wrote:
Some users will never want the system to be silent and transparent. Installing and configuring the lengthy, complicated way, is part of the joy. Anything else is seen as dumbing down.
Yes! Yes! Exactly right! Thank you Chris!

See, Linux is still the best OS, because you can do whatever you want with it.

If haiku becomes a MacOS clone (which BeOS started and Haiku ppl are following) then it’s all over. Unless you fork the source you will never change Haiku. IF you will be able to fork the sourcecode. Because as I see it, using a BSD License makes you people able to change your license to a commercial (perhaps that’s the plan in the back of everyone’s mind). GNU would have forced you being open. It might mean that in the near/far future when Haiku is complete it will be bought by YellowTAB and used mostly by germans, and that’s the end of it.

fanton wrote:
It might mean that in the near/far future when Haiku is complete it will be bought by YellowTAB and used mostly by germans, and that's the end of it.

How it can be bought? yellowTab can just do a fork. They can’t buy Haiku, because nobody is its owner.