Can we get the AltGr key assigned with Ctrl+Altfor German/Austrian keymap?
AltGr+e = € same as: Alt+Ctrl+e=€
It is how this in MS Windows works. There is no AltGr key in Haiku. On Haiku just push Left (or Right) Option key (see it on Keyboard settings where it is on your keymap, also check it is your symbol is there in the Keymap).
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I have nothing against treating left and right Alt or Option the same way when they are labeled the same. But object to treating them the same when they are not marked the same. If both left and right keys are marked ALT or OPT, then it is ok to treat them the same. But when one key is marked ALT and the other ALT GR then they should not be treated the same, because they are not.
My reasoning is that keyboards should work as intended by the keyboard manufacturer. Keyboards are diffent historically, currently and we do not know what will happen in the future. So as to not paint ourself into a too rigid rule set, the key usage should follow the keyboard layout.
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You are talking about keyboards made for MS Windows. And there is no keyboards made for Haiku.
So every Haiku user should check the layout they are using in the keyboard settings app and find out what the key is called on their keyboard and what function it performs in the Haiku system.
Also, if it is very difficult for the user to find a button on the keyboard, let him write it down on the keyboard or draw a picture that he should have in front of his eyes.
And for a person who knows how to type with all his fingers without looking at the keyboard, all those notes on the physical keys are not so important.
This is practically impossible due to the variety of different keyboards, different keyboard layouts (alphabets and languages!), and different user preferences.
ALT+NumbPad-Code is not working at all in Haiku!?
ALT+0133 should be: “…”
ALT+0165 = “A”
ALT+001 = 
This is a purely MS Windows input trick (some sort of Compose-code input variant).
Anyway…
You’d better write about the keys in the Haiku system terminology: Control (Ctrl), Option (Opt), Command (Cmd) (look in the keyboard settings app which key you’re talking about), because in the Haiku system those keys are configurable and not always what’s on the physical keyboard itself Alt is a true Opt.
Well, this was quite the long thread to read after having been away from the forum for a few days!
I think the fact that this thread has accumulated almost 250 posts in only 10 days is pretty indicative of the fact that something should be changed, at least.
I vaguely recall also being confused by the “Win” key on my keyboard appearing as “Option” when first using Haiku, but I probably forgot about it after that. (I think I’m also in the minority among the developers for usually using Haiku in “Windows/Linux shortcut keys mode”, i.e. Command is equivalent to “Ctrl” not “Alt”.)
I recall a suggestion from someone years ago (was it @mmu_man?) that we should make Win/Super open the Deskbar by default, so that the “Menu” key (which currently triggers Deskbar) can perform its originally intended function (triggering context menus on the currently focused control, i.e. in lieu of right-click.) I would be on board with that, but of course I have a standard US keyboard, and many of the complications discussed in this thread I have no real experience with…
I think I would also tentatively support renaming “Option”, as it seems like that’s the source of most of the confusion, here. But I don’t have a very strong opinion either way, I suppose.
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Well, it may also be worth pointing out that over half of the posts are from 3 people discussing round and round in circles…
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We actually have this (or something close to it) already: the “Layout” menu in Keymap preferences. There are at least some “Apple Aluminum” keyboards in there, and selecting one makes the keymap layout look pretty different. However, I don’t think this setting changes anything besides the appearance of Keymap preferences, but I could be wrong.
Is there a shortcut to open Apple menu in Mac OS?
On the Classic Mac OS that BeOS was inspired by, no, on modern macOS:
“By default, Ctrl-F2 will move focus to the menu bar, placing it initially on the Apple Menu (but not opening it—you’ll then have to press Space or down arrow to do that).
You can find/change this shortcut in the Keyboard System Preferences > Shortcuts tab > Keyboard section.”
Maybe on the US keymap you could do that, but other maps need Windows key for more characters, unless we go full AltGr which is full Windows. You have to understand that Mac OS and BeOS use the Windows/Option key very differently from Windows or Linux, it is not the same concept as the “OS key” it is the “Compose” key. I fear renaming Option to Windows would cause further Windowsization, but it only makes sense if you think of a Mac keyboard with the modifier keys swapped as BeOS did.
The “Aluminum”* keyboard layouts swap the modifier keys so that when your shortcuts are set correctly (not default) the on-screen keyboard matches your physical keyboard. It also adds an extra equals sign (0x69) and leaves a hole where the Fn key goes because you can’t map it.
- edit: I should have said Aluminum as we’re 2 generations behind current Mac keyboards already. We should add Magic and Magic 2 series even though there are not that different…
And again… “Windows = Option” only works on Haiku hacked keyboard (it is unnatural). On MacOS “Alt = Option”. On MacOS hardware (keyboard) Option and Command key exchanged physically (so BeOS mimics Mac Command key place (only on left side) on PC keyboard, by hack in keyboard driver). And “Compose” key is different thing: Compose key - Wikipedia
… am I oversimplifying things or could most of what was discussed on this thread be addressed with the following:
- Selecting a PC or MAC keyboard would set the labels as “Ctrl” “Win/Super/Meta” “Alt” or “Ctrl” “Cmd” “Opt” (cosmetic only)
- Change the way the keyboard mapper settings app works, so instead of chosing the key for a role, you’d choose the role for a key. This would allow chosing multiple keys for the same role, letting users easily manually configure the Right Alt key to another role if they so desire.
- Have the keyboard mapper settings offer three presets (I’ll use PC key labels here)
- Default - Ctrl = Ctrl, Win = Cmd, Alt = Opt, RAlt = Opt, mac keyboard users would have no issue, PC keyboard users would have one less key to be confused about, as the Alt would still behave as expected
- Emulate Be physical layout - Ctrl = Ctrl, Win = Opt, Alt = Cmd, RAlt = Opt, the current default, good for people used to the layout or used to Mac keyboards, but using Haiku with a regular PC keyboard
- Windows/Linux mode - IMHO this could be changed for Ctrl = Cmd, Win = Ctrl, Alt = Opt, RAlt = Opt, as this keeps Alt as Opt and seems to be a better equivalence to how Windows and Linux works
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I have created a wiki page that will hopefully better summarize what the problems are, since no one is going to read the hundred of posts here and extract the information from them.
https://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/HardwareInfo/Keyboards
I think this gives a complete overview of the issue, but let me know if you think I missed something.
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Great summary, I learned a lot. Thanks.
I feel it is better to draw Haiku-named shortcuts labels in menus (Cmd+C, Cmd+Opt+A etc.). Attempting to display physical key names is more confusing and even it is not possible to do it accurately.
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That’s an obvious answer but then if you switched to Windows/Linux mode it would say Command where it means Ctrl and then that is confusing. You have to print the text on the actual key even if that means only supporting standard PC keyboards, as we have basically done for the last 20 years. You cannot expect people to understand key roles. Well I guess we can, it’s a valid choice, but not the best one.
As a Mac keyboard user I’d love if it said Command or even the command symbol in the menu, but I can’t expect that PC keyboard users would agree with that.
According to Pulkomandy post it seems that after swapping it means no Ctrl anymore. Ctrl will become Cmd and Alt will become Ctrl. So you will need to press Alt+C to get command stopped in Terminal.
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Yes you a push Alt+C in Terminal in Windows/Linux mode that’s why it should (and does) say Alt+C, not Cmd+C. Edit:I meant Ctrl+C