On The Merits Of LLMs

Modern translation services (including DeepL, Google Translate, and various European services too) do not use simple paper dictionaries anymore. They use neural networks and transformer models - the exact same technology behind LLMs - to restructure and alter sentences so they make sense in English. Trying to draw a line between “good non-AI translation” and “bad AI translation” on a forum is technically impossible.

This confirms exactly what I was worried about. Since there are no objective technical or legal reasons to ban these tools on the forum, the administration is simply forcing its personal philosophical beliefs onto the community, regardless of what the users actually think.

That is the definition of a dogmatic approach. I still believe that a community forum should be governed by objective rules and mutual respect, not by the personal philosophical views of its administrators.

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did you somehow miss the fat “in the hope that we could agree about those” part of waddlesplashes message? that some people choose to ignore technical reasons does not mean they do Not exist, just that some people here don’t care, and would rather see the receiver of their message suffer the LLM, rather than do any work themselves.

The rules are laid out clearly in the forum rules, you can follow them, or you cannot. And again a machine translation is O.K

If you ram it into your AI chatbot you most certainly will be shot down over the awfull quality of your translations and the misunderstandings those cause.

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No, it does not work in this way. Documentation is not getting written automatically by just asking questions. You are often write long spans of text on this forum, but do not write Haiku documentation. Manual writing of documentation is a separate hard work and asking noob question do not help to it.

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We cannot know for sure. But we don’t know if any sort of translation service, LLM or otherwise, was used anyway. The idea is to include the source-text, which is always “from the horses mouth”, i.e. the posters original thought in their native language.

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I don’t know how accurate and understandable my written english is, I have basically learned all of it by watching movies and tv series and reading english forums etc. I have always used all software in english.

When I was in school a long long long time ago, I barely made through exams. I really wasn’t interested english then or any other languages..

A few times I have used some translation sites to get grammar checked when emails etc were more important., But usually I just go with my own written text..

..and Finnish is my native language. I hate speak english because it sounds awful, like “reis waz guud bat tires was bääd” :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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I understand that. But you can’t know the true origin of the posted text unless the user tells you, can you? That’s where it gets impractical. :wink:

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This approach do not always work because text may be not just once fully translated from one language to another. Translated version of text may be revised or corrected after being translated. Some parts of text may be directly written in English, some translated and then edited.

Person may not do not understand English at all, person may be just bad at grammar details and at choosing of good phrasing/vocabulary.

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We always have the compromise solution - fork Haiku Ports to LLM Haiku Ports and also create a forum branch for ProLLM users to communicate. Users add another repo and both camps end up happy :slight_smile: We may end up segregated like Linux (really bad) but the world wont stop for evolution.

Who will setup build server for it?

You can always use an LLM to revive HyClone and build everything on GitHub Actions.

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It seems like the forum engine ate all the text under spoilers. Now we have to wait at least 23 minute to see what the test was about.

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@nephele, you mentioned that if I use an AI chatbot to translate my posts, it will be obvious because of the “awful quality of your translations and the misunderstandings those cause,” while standard translation services are fine.

Let’s do a friendly, practical test.

I wrote a short paragraph in Russian about my approach to porting software to Haiku. I then translated it into English using four different tools. Some of these are “acceptable” traditional translation services, and some are the “forbidden” LLM chatbots.

Russian text

Я люблю заниматься портированием программ под Haiku, это для меня своеобразный спорт - заставить программу работать в среде для неё не предназначенной. Причём таким образом, чтобы максимально аутентично вписать её в наше окружение, а не просто тупо собрать: нарисовать иконку для приложения (хотя с меня такой тебе художник), адаптировать мультимедийную часть под MediKit и прочие доработки. И часто я портирую софт, который мне лично совершенно не нужен и не нравится. Я делаю это потому, что уверен в том, что свобода выбора должна принадлежать пользователю, а не разработчику или модератору. Поэтому я считаю, что любые ограничения, даже те (особенно они), которые сделаны с благими намерениями, ни к чему хорошему не приведут. И то что я пишу этот текст в этой теме лучшее тому подтверждение.

Here are the four results:

Translation A

I love porting programs to Haiku; for me, it’s a kind of sport—making a program work in an environment it wasn’t designed for. Moreover, I try to do it in a way that integrates it as authentically as possible into our environment, rather than just blindly compiling it: creating an icon for the application (though I’m not exactly an artist), adapting the multimedia part to MediKit, and other tweaks. And often I port software that I personally don’t need at all and don’t like. I do it because I believe that the freedom of choice should belong to the user, not the developer or moderator. That’s why I think any restrictions, even those (especially those) made with good intentions, will not lead to anything good. And the fact that I’m writing this text in this thread is the best proof of that.

Translation B

I love porting software to Haiku; for me, it’s a kind of sport—getting a program to run in an environment it wasn’t designed for. And doing so in a way that authentically integrates it into our ecosystem, rather than just doing a mindless build: drawing an icon for the app (even though I’m a terrible artist), adapting the multimedia backend to MediaKit, and making other tweaks. I often port software that I personally neither need nor like. I do this because I firmly believe that freedom of choice should belong to the user, not the developer or moderator. Therefore, I think that any restrictions, especially those made with good intentions, will lead to nothing good. The very fact that I am writing this text in this thread is the best proof of that.

Translation C

I love porting programs to Haiku; it’s a kind of sport for me—getting a program to work in an environment not designed for it. And I do it in a way that integrates it as authentically as possible into our environment, not just clunking it together: drawing an application icon (although I’m a pretty good artist), adapting the multimedia component to MediKit, and other tweaks. And I often port software that I personally don’t need or like. I do this because I believe that freedom of choice should belong to the user, not the developer or moderator. Therefore, I believe that any restrictions, even (especially) those made with good intentions, will lead to nothing good. And the fact that I’m writing that text in this thread is the best proof of that.

Translation D

I love porting programs to Haiku; it’s a kind of sport for me—getting a program to work in an environment not designed for it. And I do it in a way that integrates it as authentically as possible into our environment, not just clunking it together: drawing an application icon (although I’m a pretty good artist), adapting the multimedia component to MediKit, and other tweaks. And I often port software that I personally don’t need or like. I do this because I believe that freedom of choice should belong to the user, not the developer or moderator. Therefore, I believe that any restrictions, even (especially) those made with good intentions, will lead to nothing good. And the fact that I’m writing that text in this thread is the best proof of that.

The Challenge:
Could you (or anyone else) tell me which ones are the “acceptable” translations, and which ones are the “awful” LLMs that cause misunderstandings?

If you can reliably tell them apart, then the policy makes sense. But if they are indistinguishable, then as @humdinger pointed out, we cannot know for sure, and dividing tools into “legal” and “illegal” categories is technically impossible.

No hard feelings, let’s just test the theory in practice )

PS: Due to the slowpoke mode being enabled, I couldn’t correct the error in the post right away.

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Good point. I’d be more comfortable building each package from source. I think thats the way to go.

Why won’t the forum let me correct a mistake in my own post (An error occurred: You are not permitted to view the requested resource)???

In any case, here’s the correct option D (in the original post, it’s a duplicate of C)

Translation D

I love porting stuff to Haiku. It’s like a sport to me—getting a program to run in an environment it wasn’t meant for. And I don’t just want to slap it together; I want to make it feel like a native part of our system: designing an icon (though I’m not much of an artist), adapting the multimedia side to MediKit, and so on. I often port software that I don’t even need or like personally. I do it because I’m sure that the freedom of choice should belong to the user, not the developer or the moderator. That’s why I think any restrictions, even those made with good intentions (especially those), won’t lead to anything good. And me writing this text in this thread is proof enough.

This symbol alone acts as an AI-marker to me.

The real harm causes by LLMs: traditional typography is now condemned.

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Hello, I am don’t know Russian and I don’t intend to join the discussion about LLM policies. However, I am not a native English speaker, and the challenge got my interest. I want to know the meaning of “(хотя с меня такой тебе художник)” because it was translated completely the opposite between Translations A, B, D “though I’m not exactly an artist” and Translation C “although I’m a pretty good artist”.

Unfortunately, the text does not seem to be visible for some reason.

But anyway. I think this is the best and most open discussion about AI we had so far. There are a lot of good points on both sides of the line, and I enjoyed reading it for the most part which I cannot say of all the threads we had so far about it.

Disclaimer: I actually had computational linguistics, and artificial intelligence as major in university. I pretty much lost interest in this though, afterwards; so while I know the theoretical underpinnings, I’m not really more knowledgeable about LLMs as the next guy.

It is true that AI does miss out on reality, it is not grounded in the actual physical world with emotions, feelings, and physical sensors, and memories. This has nothing to do with having or not having been in the US. But this does not have anything to do with LLMs either. They are not artificial intelligence in the sense of a general artificial intelligence, they are just stochastic machines. They don’t think at all. They also don’t really do any reasoning.

They actually can produce good quality translations for the most part. Much better than any purely mechanical tool, or poor English wording by someone who cannot really speak English. Anyone claiming them to be bad or worse should just put them on a test drive. I greatly prefer reading their output compared to the other possibilities. They obviously are not, and cannot be, as good as a human translator. They may “hallucinate” wildly on questions, but that’s hardly a problem for simple translations.

It’s true that we do not know exactly how the human brain works. But it’s a fact that artificial neuronal networks work similarly even if they are only very simplistic copies. I would even assume that the speech generation in human brains works actually similar to LLMs - we do not have to know any language rules in order to speak our native language perfectly. We sense if something sounds unfamiliar because it’s not common. There are examples of perfectly valid sentences in your native language that you simply don’t understand because they sound unfamiliar. It’s just that we have actual brain functionality beyond speech.

So comparing them with humans is just not justified in my opinion. What they create “freely” is thoughtless stochastic output; it may create something good on pure luck, but it’s mostly closer to garbage. You can greatly use it as a tool for various things. Don’t humanize them, it’s belittling humans. On the other hand, don’t overestimate the human mind either. At least not in comparison to other living beings.

Most of our technological progress is reducing social engagement. From washing machines to smart phones. LLMs are just one step further down that road. Personally, I find the lack of learning how to think when using them incorrectly more worrisome. But then, I’m possibly a nerd that cannot objectively judge what is the bigger threat :slight_smile:

The concentration of power to a small amount of companies, the resource costs, and unethical behavior of these companies are indisputable. Local LLMs can solve most of that, though.

I find it impractical to add the source translation to every post. If someone wants to do that, fine, but I wouldn’t ask it of anyone. But I also find it remarkable, that so many people take the time to use translation tools instead of learning the language; that’s so much overhead in daily communication that I would probably go for the latter… a solution here could be that we include translation services into the forum software, if that’s possible. Then people could just write in their native tongue, and anyone could read the translation, or the original, too, if they understand the language. If that isn’t an option, asking for clarification seems to be the way to go instead of using other translation tools to translate the original to maybe understand it better – that really doesn’t make much sense. Communication beyond the language barrier is always hard, let’s not make it worse.

As for contributions to the code base, I actually think using LLMs is a possible copyright infringement, and should therefore be handled with care. I don’t feel comfortable stealing other people’s work without attribution.

Code quality can also be an issue. LLMs are not able to understand complex problems or code bases (and how could they, they don’t think or actually can understand anything). Using them for smaller applications or UI changes is not an issue, though. So if you have an LLM around that was trained on license compatible material, I personally wouldn’t have any objections if you used them for code ending up in the Haiku repository.

Sorry for the lengthy post, just my 2 cents.

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This phrase means I’m a below-average artist. Option C was translated incorrectly.

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“Stochastic” is a bit of a thought terminator. The most useful analogy in my opinion is pattern recognition. They recognize and continue text patterns.

By “pattern” I do not mean trivial patterns: for example, a cat on a photo is a pixel pattern, but not a trivial one. In the same way, a pattern recognized by an LLM can be rather complex and resemble a pseudoconcept in some way.

But anyway, there’s more to thinking than recognizing text patterns.

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