To me that also did not seem like a personal attack but as an expression of disbelief in ignoring evidence.
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@nephele @MichaelPeppers
I just tried to moderate the discussion and stop it from escalating. If you see that differently, thatâs OK of course.. Iâm out of this thread.
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I am pretty sure both M$ and OEMs are to blame for that awful sticker âWindows X readyâ long before X was out (replace âXâ with your âfavoriteâ M$ crap - you have lots of choices). In most cases, that sticker was a blatant lie. In reality said âreadyâ PC was far from capable to run X, because X was more bloated than the previous version. It barely worked for a little while with X - then it was pretty much unusable. How many users migrated to GNU+Linux / BSDs / Haiku / whatever else because of that?
At any rate, itâs best to avoid escalating this OEM-related discussion - or any discussion for that matter. Forum fights never helped anyoneâs cause, and contribute nothing. The only forum fight Iâve ever âenjoyedâ was Editor wars, and that only because it was not serious and was clearly done for fun. Even that, however, was pointless. Oh, and by the way, if you donât use Emacs, you are a ân00bâ. 
Jokes aside, and returning to the original topic, if you are expecting much from Window$ 10 EOL, Iâm afraid you are just daydreaming. The vast majority of Window$ users are stuck and dragged behind Micro$oftâs chariot. And they wonât try to escape.
You may argue that this time itâs different, because they overdid it with 11 and its deliberately higher hardware requirements - which are there only to totally lock your computer in their âecosystemâ. I still think most users wonât budge, even when Micro$oft outrageously asks them to buy a new computer just to run their new shiny Window$ version - complete with even more crap, utterly infected with spyware / copilot / ads etc, all without any shame.
Believe me, I really wish I was wrong.
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Agree 100%. Some may hold out with Win10 for a year or two, but as soon as their must-have software decrees âWin11 requiredâ they will buy that new machine.
A lot of us on this forum are, to put it bluntly, old. We come from a time when every computer owner was a programmer to some extent, 8 bits ruled and 64Kb was enough RAM for anybody.
Those days are over. Take my (younger) wife. Sheâs a smart person, with a PhD in Education Policy, and a few publications away from being a full professor. Her laptop is, to her, purely a tool, a necessary object. When the time comes, the university will just have to provide a Win11-ready laptop.
The interesting question is, what happens to the old computer? The usual âput it on eBayâ answer no longer applies, because the value of Win10 machines is likely to collapse. So a lot of them will end up being handed down to that cousin who is a bit of a geek. The guy down the hallway whose job title has nothing to do with computing, but who everybody asks to come around quickly to fix their laptops. The girl down the road who taught herself Python by watching YouTube vids.
And those are the people we should reach. The geeks who suddenly have new-old toys to play with. And the message?
Haiku makes computing fun again.
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@BlueSky Thank you and the rest of the mod team for your efforts in keeping this a civil place for discusion.
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Ahh, the old good times when men were men, and if you needed, e.g., a plotting application you had to write one yourself⌠when you wouldnât dare to say âI know about computersâ if you didnât know at least one more programming language beyond Basic.. when âcomputer guruâ meant you wrote a variant of âpac manâ in Assembly (without an Assembler or with a pirated copy of an Assembler, because they were very expensive)âŚ
Today âcomputer literateâ means you know how to send an email (using Window$ crappy mailer, of course), and you can do elementary things with crap like⌠Excel or Word. This is considered âtechnologyâ, even. And even this is going to be worse, as people will let copilot to do things for them.
Well, not everybody has a geek cousin, or even worse nephew / niece (because most of them are busy playing with their âsmartâ phones). My guess is most of those âWin10â machines will end up on ebay or local shops, sold cheaper just to get rid of them. Itâs probably a bit early for all that, but I think it will happen within next year or so. Haikuerâs paradise, I might add.
This is exactly the part that itâs seriously overlooked. I can do my daily work on FreeBSD or GNU/Linux and itâs just fine, but when I do it on Haiku itâs fine but also fun. It doesnât stand in my way, but itâs also a pleasant environment to work with. And I didnât have to learn everything from scratch, I just had to familiarize myself with this OS - which was actually pretty easy, and the new GUI just makes sense.
3 Likes
Take your agression elsewhere please.
Apologies. Thank you.
Today you donât need to write your pacman in assembler. Iâd say thatâs a good thing, that we are a functioning society where we work together, some people make tools, other use said tools, and generally we can achieve a lot more things with computers, considerably more easily, because there is less of a learning curve and one can lean on the existing pile of software instead of starting from all the way at the bottom.
The economics are a bit broken, for sure, where you pay with personal data instead of money. But letâs not blame the tools for that. We should aim at making computers easier for everyone, and help people achieve more things with their time. It doesnât matter if they chose to use that extra time also sitting in front of a computer writing assembler code for fun, playing video games, watching movies, or just go for a hike outside.
Repair cafes are helping, Linux user groups are helping, and over here even local big brand computer resellers are helping with this, setting up guides on how to install Zorin OS by yourself. Mainstream media are talking about Linux. Linux adoption is going up, slowly reaching 5% in some parts of the world (from 1.5% just 5 years qgo), while Windows has been in steadly decline at least since 2010, now about to get below 75% of the desktop market (itâs even worse for them if you take into account that a lot of browsing is on tablets and phones now - in that case itâs barely 33%, behind Android). You can check stats from StatsCounter or from the US government for example.
To me, it looks like Microsoft is on a slow decline, as IBM and many others were before them. You seem to very well understand why, so I donât understand why you keep assuming that people are blind to this and will just get a new machine to run Windows 11. That new version of Windows isnât exciting - it is even quite the opposite. So either people will cling to their existing Windows 10 setup as long as they can, or theyâll try something else.
Now the question is, will Linux (the most likely thing theyâll try) manage to get them to stay?
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Computer literate is having a social media account and utilize the browser, chat, and email app.
Everything else is fluff.
Programming has gone the way of AI/5GL. The human pool is filling with content creators, administrators and maintainers versus real software developers. You think it and AI/5GL builds it. Isnât it grand?? You donât code, you just unfold⌠and let AI/5GL take overâŚâŚ
It kind of puzzles me how those computer literate gladly click, tap, scroll, tag, swipe and everything trendy they like to do, totally skipping the âhowsâ part: how does it receive my touch? how does this game draws/lights this room I see? how does this message reach my girlfriend? how does my shiny new phone magically pops in no time the thousand pictures I had into my old one? how does my voice turns into an audio file? Even the simple âwhere this text I copied gets actually copied? and how can it be pasted afterwards?â And, finally, What does a damn operating system do?
Truth be told, we from the 80âs didnât know all this stuff either, but we asked ourselves some relevant questionsâŚ
Edit: sorry, Iâm afraid this is far off topic with respect to haiku marketing. Good olâ memoriesâŚ
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It may be off-topic, but itâs important. I still remember blowing a friendâs mind by pointing out that when you cut or copy a file in your file manager of choice, the operating system doesnât do anything except remember what file it was. Then when you paste it somewhere else, the file manager essentially sends the operating system the appropriate command (mv or cp) with the source and destination you selected as arguments.
Youâll say most users have no reason to know or care; I say itâs the difference between empowered people who understand their tools, and victims. What kind of people is Haiku for?
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When your friend has recovered, you can blow his mind again. âOh, by the way, the file is still on the same physical place on the disk, all that has really changed is an index entry in the file systemâ. 
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As promised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O6fyElUECo
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yeah, but only when source and target directories lie into the same partition 
Edit: funny story: it was almost ten years ago, I caught my dad struggling with Windows (maybe XP) being too slow at copying files. I asked âDad, why are you copying files to the destination folder and then delete those same files from source location? you can simply Cut them and then Paste them, and Windows will take care of everythingâ He said: âyeah, but windows takes so little time for moving such a huge amount of files, I donât trust it - it is fooling me!â
I gave up with him.
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I only have windows in two places: (1) windows 7 on an old netbook that is used solely when I need to run VCDS to get fault codes and make changes to my cars ECU config via the OBD2 connector (2) an ayaneo handheld that I bought solely for gaming, comes with windows 10, and I treat essentially as an appliance. I only play games rarely and for very short periods of time (10-20 minutes), so I was quite annoyed last week when I turned it on and it closed my game, said âinstalling updatesâ, then a couple of hours later started back up in windows 11, and now all the games run at about half the frame rate compared to windows 10. I guess it will be some variant of steam OS for me nowâŚ
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I really like your comment and I agree that that makes an ideal target for Haikuâs future users.
But I need to stress that Haiku is so friendly, so fresh, so âlovelyâ, that weâd be shooting ourselves in the foot if the project donât also make an attempt to target the regular, every-day user. Because it works so well for that target and the addition of the userbase will only further medium/long-term interest and developments in Haiku.
To me, as a rather smart but non-geek, non-âhackerâ, sort of person, Haiku has been by far the nicest, most âfriendlyâ user experience, non-Windows operating system I have ever used. It is so simple and works without having the baggage of Linux (terminal, its âhackerâ image, the confusing 100 distributions etc.) or Windows (the downgraded âmodernâ designs, overly online/AI integrations etc.) while at the same time being more accessible than Macintosh (which are limited only to Apple hardware).
I hope you guys notice that Haiku as a result currently holds a very special and potential position. Take it from me if you donât believe it. Haiku is by far the easiest of these operating systems to install, use and operate, and understand, by a regular non-geek user, and that is something it must take pride in and embrace. It just needs some basic security like firewalls and that, and maybe multi-user support in the future, but other than that it is already very polished and usable. I canât wait for public R1.
I disagree on it needing a firewall, if a port isnât open then there is nothing listening on it 
Now, maybe a permission system for what apps can talk to the network at all is called for, though to be fair this is also what you could have ment by firewall.
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Yes probably the latter. I think in either case there has to be a basic level of security Iâm guessing for basically everyone. Itâs easy for us to say that Haiku is still small and it wouldnât be specifically âtargetedâ. But the moment anyone chooses to do so they would likely very easily breach through if this is ignored. I think everyone (whether techy enthusiasts or a casual PC user) would want at least a basic level of feeling that they have some security. 
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I wanted to reply with
git clone \<URL\>
cd [dir]
make && make install
as a manual installation process,
but finally make has fallen as probably my 64bit Haiku nightly not prepared promptly for compiling ⌠just as Iâm a layman generally 
this way I do not do manuall installations anymore.
î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~ î°î° ď 21:27 î°î° ď î° git clone https://github.com/s40in/HakiDecors Cloning into 'HakiDecors'... remote: Enumerating objects: 211, done. remote: Total 211 (delta 0), reused 0 (delta 0), pack-reused 211 (from 1) Receiving objects: 100% (211/211), 203.67 KiB | 891.00 KiB/s, done. Resolving deltas: 100% (139/139), done. î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~ î°î° ď 21:28 î°î° ď î° ls -l ./HakiDecors total 72 drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiAsciiDecorator drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiCDEDecorator drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiDecorator drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiDecorator2 drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiGameLDecor drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiGameMDecor drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiNSDecor drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiWarp4Decor drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiWin16Decorator drwxr-xr-x 1 user root 2048 dec. 16 21:28 HakiWinXDecor -rw-r--r-- 1 user root 95 dec. 16 21:28 Makefile -rw-r--r-- 1 user root 1082 dec. 16 21:28 MIT -rw-r--r-- 1 user root 57 dec. 16 21:28 README.md î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~ î°î° ď 21:28 î°î° ď î° cd ./HakiDecors î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~/HakiDecors î°î° ď 21:29 î°î° ď î° cat README.md # HakiDecors Haki Decarators Pack for Hakilo or Haiku OS î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~/HakiDecors î°î° ď 21:29 î°î° ď î° pkgman search hakilo No matching packages found. î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~/HakiDecors î°î° ď 21:29 î°î° ď î° pkgman search Hakilo No matching packages found. î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~/HakiDecors î°î° ď 21:30 î°î° ď î° make make -C HakiAsciiDecorator/. make[1]: Entering directory '/boot/home/HakiDecors/HakiAsciiDecorator' mkdir -p objects.x86_64-cc13-release; \ mkdepend -I./ -Iobjects.x86_64-cc13-release/ -p .cpp:objects.x86_64-cc13-release/%n.o -m -f "objects.x86_64-cc13-release/HakiAsciiDecorator.d" HakiAsciiDecorator.cpp mkdepend: Info: Can't find '/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/os/interface/Layout.h'. mkdepend: Included at least by: HakiAsciiDecorator.h mkdepend: Info: Can't find '/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/os/interface/View.h'. mkdepend: Included at least by: HakiAsciiDecorator.h mkdepend: Info: Can't find '/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/os/interface/Window.h'. mkdepend: Included at least by: HakiAsciiDecorator.h g++ -c HakiAsciiDecorator.cpp -iquote./ -iquote./ -iquoteobjects.x86_64-cc13-release/ -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app/font -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app/decorator -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app/drawing/Painter -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app/drawing -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/src/servers/app/stackandtile -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/private/interface -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/private/app -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/private/kernel -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/private/graphics -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/headers/os/interface -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/headers/private/interface -isystem/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/libs/agg -isystem/system/develop/headers/freetype2 -O3 -DUSEMAKEFILE -o "objects.x86_64-cc13-release/HakiAsciiDecorator.o" In file included from HakiAsciiDecorator.cpp:11: HakiAsciiDecorator.h:11:10: fatal error: /system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/os/interface/View.h: No such file or directory 11 | #include "/system/develop/sources/haiku/headers/os/interface/View.h" | ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ compilation terminated. make[1]: *** [/boot/system/develop/etc/makefile-engine:291: objects.x86_64-cc13-release/HakiAsciiDecorator.o] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory '/boot/home/HakiDecors/HakiAsciiDecorator' make: *** [Makefile:5: HakiAsciiDecorator/.] Error 2 î˛ ďŹ user î°î° ~/HakiDecors î°î° ď 21:30 î°î° ď î°