Well, a bug is a bug, whether it was reported by a 12-year old or by the ghost of Alan Turing.
However, the kind of issue raised by the once-in-a-lifetime user is more likely to be “make this more like <insert name of other OS>” than an actual bug.
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GitHub is controlled by micro$oft, it has absurd rules and uses code to train AI, it has to use a web interface and git to manage, the security is a joke, it doesn’t meet Haiku’s needs.
Gitlab has a confusing interface, it applies the same absurd rules as GitHub, Trac meets Haiku’s needs well, a big advantage is that developers are not subject to exclusion or blocking rules from third parties.
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GitHub is proprietary and owned by the “devil” itself. As such, it’s even worse than just proprietary. It collects data about projects and uses said data in their BS generator (a.k.a “AI”), named “copilot”) - and that without developers’ consent, of course. Yes, GitHub is widely used, but for the same reasons Window$, Chrome, G00gle services (and other services as well) are dominant. None of those reasons has anything to do with quality.
It’s not a coincidence GitHub advertises itself as “world’s most widely adopted”. That’s all they can say about it to promote it. In just the same way, systemd in GNU/Linux world is routinely advertised as “widely adopted”, with a “use it or else…” mentality. I see the exact same mentality by that random guy saying “I have a bug report but won’t send it because Haiku asks me to use Trac for that” (instead of his beloved GitHub I suppose). This is completely unacceptable. Who are you to tell developers “use the bug tracking system I like, or else”? Honestly, I doubt that guy even found a bug in the first place; it looks more like a rant by a random “keyboard warrior”.
Years ago, I saw a few people asking (basically demanding) developers of FreeImage (an excellent image manipulating library) to move to GitHub, otherwise they wouldn’t send bug reports. Developers silently refused - and they did well, I might add. Do you know what said people did? They were not interested in bug reporting at all. In just the same mentality as above, they cloned the library in GitHub, added literally nothing (other than a Cmake build system nobody asked for, which barely worked). Voila, they became “developers” now.
Furthermore, what’s wrong with Trac? The most common argument is “it’s old” or “old looking”. My answer is simple: So what? It is tried-and-true, and it works. If you really think your preferred bug tracking system is better, then use that one in your own projects - if you have any (which I doubt). Just stop pushing what you like to other developers.
Personally, I will never publish a single line of code in GitHub, ever. Not that anyone cares, but I just refuse to contribute anything. Sadly, I do have a GitHub account though, and that only because projects I do like are there and use GitHb’s bug tracking.
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It collects data about projects and uses said data in their BS generator (a.k.a “AI”), named “copilot”) - and that without developers’ consent, of course.
For a open source code base this is not very convincing:
- Everyone else also uses public code from github and other code hostings to train their LLMs
- This includes models one can freely run locally
- The same way Common Crawl data is used
- Using public data is legally considered fair use
A much better argument against Github is the following: there’s no point to replace a tool you own and which suits your needs with a tool you don’t own and which does not suit your needs.
I see the exact same mentality by that random guy saying “I have a bug report but won’t send it because Haiku asks me to use Trac for that” (instead of his beloved GitHub I suppose).
People just hate making a yet another account. OAuth solves this problem, nobody complained about this forum so far, for example.
It seems like there was a plugin for Trac, but it seems to be unmaintained.
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The good news is that this didn’t happen. That person just said they didn’t want to create an account for an one off report about a problem with the website (not with Haiku itself - with the website, which uses the same bugtracker). They didn’t demand that we stop using Trac, that is only the interpretation of someone else who decided to open a topic about it here on the forum.
I must say I am not gompletely surprised that this discussion is quickly dropping into exagerated arguments and imaginary attacks. Maybe some people are more interested about explaining how Github is bad (despite having just read a do’en of posts by other people saying the same thing), instead of keeping the interesting and relevant part of this discussion: can we make it easy for people to report problems without having to go through the annoying progress of creating a Trac acoount? Do we risk more spam? Do we risk people making a bugreport and then never responding when asked for more info? Are these risks worth taking?
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I’m not sure this is this case. That person says, and I quote, “then i saw a big paragraph about having to make an account for a site i’ll probably literally never use again”. Translation: You don’t use the bug tracking system I already use (and have an account already); I have to make a new account and I am too lazy to “open my email client and click a link”.
There are several projects I like that are (sadly) hosted on GitHub - and I dislike GitHub. Did I go to Mastodon, or project’s Discord, or elsewhere, to cry how I hate making an account on GitHub? No. I just created a GitHub account for reporting bugs (and nothing else). I didn’t like creating an account there, but reporting a bug was more important to me than ranting.
What that person did instead? He goes to Mastodon (presumably elsewhere as well) to rant about the “huge” annoyance of creating an account. Besides, that guy clearly says “I honestly don’t care enough to go through the trouble”. I don’t think Haiku lost valuable info here. The whole vibe of this post is just another keyboard warrior looking for attention - any kind of attention. He won’t be the first nor the last of that kind, and I think we are wasting our time talking about just another random post.
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The person has autism & ADHD, so I’d kindly ask you and everyone else to refrain from personal characteristics, like “keyboard warrior”.
It’d better for everyone if we keep this discussion less emotional and focus instead on relevant things, as suggest by PulkoMandy:
I’d add to this “can we make it easy also for people with disabilities?”
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I don’t see how ADHD or autism has anything to do with this issue, in any sense, Why bring up this aspect of the author of the post? This topic was not even made by the author of the post.
The nice thing about social media (like mastodon) is: people are free to complain there, and you are free to ignore it. (and yes, calling them a keyboard warrior is baseless, considering they did not even complain to us, or told us to do anything. Instead only talking about the topic of haiku in generell)
People are free to not report issues for whatever reasons they want, sometimes I also can’t be bothered. I requested an account on videloan for example and never got a response, so I won’t bother to report the two/three issues I have with vlc. (As I don’t care enough to follow up on it)
PulkoMandy chose to ask the person on mastodon about the issue, so that specific thing is resolved.
The whole point of social media is people paying attention to each other. You can dislike social media if you want, but clearly people don’t post to it with the expectation that nobody reads their posts.
I would advise to read that post more on face value instead of trying to extract some implied meaning that is probably not there in the first place.
Someone encountered an issue on the website, and did not get over the hurlde to make an account, that’s… perfectly fine. We already know this is an annoying process and looking to improve it, we just aren’t there yet. But hey we already got gerrit and concourse under the sso, so we are partway there, and we likely will reach the rest eventually. Haiku is not the fastest project for those kinda of things.
Anyhow, this is getting more and more away from haiku using github, should I split out dome posts?
That would apply to any other human or non-human entity, no matter what. We can treat people respectfully and not shitstorm them.
That would have been better than going on about it in this forum topic.
Please take a second to think about wether your posts are bringing something useful, or just unjustified attacks on someone who made the horrible crime of writing a message on Mastodon. You don’t need to be so angry about that, and even if you are, you should keep it for yourself, that doesn’t belong in this discussion. Apparently my previous message was not clear enough. Please stop now.
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I had no intention to go on with this anyway, as it should be clear in my previous post. All I said was the vibe of that post is what I think it is, meaning it sounds like that. If you think I was that offensive, I can delete my two posts above.
ADHD can complicate multi-step registration process with several switches of context between the browser and email client, and probably the person didn’t want “to go through the trouble” not because of being lazy as was stated here, but because of their condition.
it was a bit sad for me to see the after a certain point the thread could be mostly summarized as “we don’t give a shit about everyone else experience, if it’s good for me it must be good for everyone” 
It’s a bit sad that you don’t seem to give a shit about free software and independence and weight comfort over everything else.
That’s luckily not how a project like this works.
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At this point it’s just a “us vs the world” religious war. It honestly has nothing to do with free software or independence. As those come from the freedom that any one of us has in relation to Haiku as a software and as a codebase, and have little to do with what collaborative tool is used by the community.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about many things, including my background, my values, my expertise and my experience in OSS and just see me as the enemy of the last fortress of the only Truth.
I think there isn´t much value the community can get anymore from this post, I got most of the answers I was looking for and the core development group has stated their point of view, so it won’t be constructive to move the thread forward any further.
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I know this is derailling, but how is it taking away the point of Pap? Not to make it about me now, but I aswell have autism and ADHD and I can tell you that I can still be a keyboard warrior. Just because we get distracted quickly doesn’t mean we can’t open our mail box and click a verification email. Just ‘lock in’. Yes not everyone with the diagnosis is the same, but it’s a hollow statement. I just found it necessairy to share my opinion on this.
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Have we been reading the same thread? I’m sorry if this tone seems hurtful in anyway. But it’s not “It works for me”, it’s that GitHub is a garbage service and an inconvinience. Multiple people explained the reason and yes the thread does derail, but that summarization doesn’t do justice.
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Can we please stop exagerating either way?
The points are:
- Github and Trac have different workflows
- Neither is garbage or inconvenient, theyare just different
- One of them is a better fit to our project (it is open source software, it has more features for triaging a large ticket base)
- The other works well for other projects, but not for us. Given its success, you can’t defend the position that it’s a garbage service (I don’t like it, but still, it appears to do things the way that works for some other projects)
- None of thrs has any relation to the initial complaint, which was that using Trac reouires creating a dedicated login, where we could set up an optional “login with github” system (or other auth providers) for people who don’t want to go through the process of creating an account. Once you have an account, the experience for creating a ticket is not that different: you enter a summary and a description.
That’s all. There is no need to try to ridicule either tools or the persons involved, so why are you all insisting on doing that?
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I’m not trying to ridicule the other person. I’m ridiculing the fact that he summarizes the thread in a way that makes no sense giving the thread. I can agree that calling it a garbage service is subjective and exegerated. With garbage I was pointing to its flaws which others also have mentioned in this thread, a non-ideal service would be better worded. Also how is it not an inconvinience if it doesn’t work well for the Haiku project. I didn’t mean that GitHub is an inconvinience for everyone. I found it necessairy to say those things, because he is leaving out so much said just to make a point which is dissrespectful to all the answers people have given to his reasonable question.
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Exegesis of a discussion can lead to multiple outcomes, the fact that my interpretation of inner motivations of what was written leads to different conclusions than yours doesn’t mean my conclusions are ridiculous. We are not talking about math, the number of variables leading a person having an opinion or preference about an issue tracker is so big that not even the person itself is aware of all of them.
Happy to explain the reasons that lead to my summary of the thread and discuss them further via DM if you are interested in discussing them for the benefit of enjoying going into the details, but right now I don’t think further discussions will move the needle.
Git was designed by, and for, £inux kernel development. So it is the spawn of £inux and M$ - both our mortal enemies 
I suspect not.
I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint. Haiku gets a bit of flack over having ports rather than own native software, and so it makes sense to maintain our own sovereignty in areas we can control rather than fall into line with £inux and M$. There are newer tools for revision control and bug tracking such as Fossil that postdate even Git and have feature sets to match.
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