Games are important for Haiku, but not for everyone. It really depends on what you intend to use Haiku for. I personally don’t play much in the way of games under BeOS because I spend most of my time doing work for school in StarOffice under Window$ or writing code in BeOS. However, my mother-in-law uses her 500Mhz box just for playing games and there are games I loaded on it that are free for BeOS that she loves, particularly Mahjongg. She’s a typical computer-illiterate, so she doesn’t want to spend money on something that she thinks she’s going to break somehow, so things like Pelle’s Patience are her only kind of option. Now gamers who are into the flavor of the month 3D-shooter are a different story, but I’m not even so sure that that will stay that way for all that long - Haiku, unlike Linux, is very commercial-friendly and also easy to develop games for (OpenGL, SDL, etc). The potential is there for Haiku/BeOS/Zeta to be a gaming platform. My $0.03. 
For anyone that’s interested in that kind of thing, there is a absolutely excellent GPL’d online multiplayer FPS called CodeRed Alien Arena 2006.
Currently it supports Linux and Win32 platforms. The reason I’m thinking in a BeOS context is that it’s very quick even on modest hardware (isn’t that what BeOS is about?). But it does require OpenGL support.
What's the hardest part of making something like this possible? Is it getting the hardware vendors to support the graphics cards with drivers?
Would be cool if the proprietary linux nvidia/ati drivers could be somehow wrapped to work with haiku - maybe in wine style as it is nothing more than a linker - provide a fake layer between the driver kernel interface which reroutes the communication to Haiku subsystems and so on - that could provide full 3D. :lol:
As for anything else - arent there drivers out there which could be recycled? looking around and seeing a lot of candidates
Quote:What's the hardest part of making something like this possible? Is it getting the hardware vendors to support the graphics cards with drivers?Would be cool if the proprietary linux nvidia/ati drivers could be somehow wrapped to work with haiku - maybe in wine style as it is nothing more than a linker - provide a fake layer between the driver kernel interface which reroutes the communication to Haiku subsystems and so on - that could provide full 3D. :lol:
As for anything else - arent there drivers out there which could be recycled? looking around and seeing a lot of candidates
Could you emulate windows drivers to work in haiku? I am saying windows because is supports lot of hardware (and I think this is one of the reasons is so popular). For example dll files trough wine…I don’t know, better than nothing…
no_dammagE wrote:Quote:What's the hardest part of making something like this possible? Is it getting the hardware vendors to support the graphics cards with drivers?Would be cool if the proprietary linux nvidia/ati drivers could be somehow wrapped to work with haiku - maybe in wine style as it is nothing more than a linker - provide a fake layer between the driver kernel interface which reroutes the communication to Haiku subsystems and so on - that could provide full 3D. :lol:
As for anything else - arent there drivers out there which could be recycled? looking around and seeing a lot of candidates
Could you emulate windows drivers to work in haiku? I am saying windows because is supports lot of hardware (and I think this is one of the reasons is so popular). For example dll files trough wine…I don’t know, better than nothing…
Its possible but a: only works on x86, b: only on 32 bit with 32 bit drivers and only on 64 bit with 64 bit drivers and c: has never been shown to work with anything other than network and modem drivers. And d: not a hope in hell of being allowed distribute them with the core OS.
what about porting linux drivers? would that do any good. because linux supports more hardware nowadays…at least things like nvidia chipset, geforce (for gaming), and ac97 audio (90% of boards have that 
[exagerating])
nvidia drivers are closed source. Haiku’s nvidia drivers are already better than the opensource ones on Linux. As goes “porting” them, they’re for a totally different OS. You can use them to get info on the hardware, thats about it.
not a hope in hell of being allowed distribute them with the core OS.
MYOB wrote:but windows drivers are free. they don't come with the os. you can download them and do whatever the hell you want with them. there is no place that says you should only use them in windows.not a hope in hell of being allowed distribute them with the core OS.
Doesn’t help for the drivers you need to get a machine going and on line, which is disk, input, network, modem, etc, etc. Doesn’t help when most of the drivers are packaged in .exe installers too.
I think game support is going to be one of the deal-breakers for many desktop users. This is a double-edged sword…
On one hand: the latest and greatest games won’t run on Haiku because the latest and greatest are usually Windows-only.
But on the other hand: provided we get hardware acceleration working in OpenGL (and possibly have DirectX support), there are a load of open-sourced games out there that would run like greased lightning on Haiku. Once users realize that, hey, Haiku is awesome for gaming, our userbase will rise–along with popularity–and this, ladies and gentlemen, is what the game- and card-makers will notice.
It won’t happen overnight. I doubt it will happen during the lifespan of R1, but I firmly believe that once the idea that Haiku is a great gaming OS catches on, it will become a top choice among both users and makers of games.
MYOB wrote:but windows drivers are free. they don't come with the os. you can download them and do whatever the hell you want with them. there is no place that says you should only use them in windows.not a hope in hell of being allowed distribute them with the core OS.
Maybe check some of the EULA’s that come with those drivers before you assume there are no restrictions on them… I haven’t personally checked, but I’m sure at least one manufacturer has language in there about what you can/can’t do with their drivers… certainly I doubt many allow you to redistribute them in any way other than what they’ve provided.
A wrapper around windows drivers requires emulating things like the Windows registry (where many windows drivers store their settings) and all the necessary kernel calls and other DLL interfaces that the drivers may be calling in order to function properly… Projects like ReactOS are the closest to actually doing this with ALL drivers - mainly because ReactOS aims to be binary-compatible with Windows NT/2k/XP and therefore will provide everything that a Windows driver may need in order to function.
It is better to create native solutions anyay. Building an Haiku doesn’t mean scotch-taping together a bunch of aging or substandard (windows) code and painting it yellow.
Hi boys. I am realist and programmer too, (in linux) and I say thatôs first ports some little to Haiku. Etc. Allegro its BeOS compatible and its great for beginers programmers. its not very fast but there are AllegroGL enhacement and … and big support … after you can port a SDL or ClanLib (clanlib is full c++ with threads). In the oficial pages of SDL is write that is support BeOS, too.
SDL works (SCUMMVM can run) at the moment on Haiku. I’m sure there are some areas where it still has problems, but more testing is needed ( :oops: )
The only porting we’ll need to do for SDL, might be after R1, when we move it from BEOS to HAIKU removing any hacks that had to be used, and making it more native ( I mean, we’d clone the beos port, and correct it ).
Things like joystick support might need to be worked on before R1, mind.
Thats the way I see it happening, feel free to correct me.
The more games available the better. Windows has many younger users mostly because of the games. Look at the World of Warcraft hype for instance. But many other 3D Games as well.
Provider Users with a huge variety of other games and they would start to leave Windows (they do moan a lot about the virus and rootkit problems, so its not so much they dont WANT to leave windows, its just they are lazy and need incentives)
I am not sure which way to go for visually appealing games in general on non windows side. I think its still quite some way/time to go. 
I wonder if it has to do with 3D drivers being a problem in it, or if its a lack of manpower. (I am talking about 3D games on non-windows platforms here, I dont know many good ones. Even on a MAC you often find good commercial 3D games, and it doesnt have a big market share, only big company behind it.)
A quick Google search yields the following:
N'Gai Croal, "Sims Family Values," Newsweek, November 25, 2002, pp. 48-9"Last year $6.35 billion worth of video- and computer games were sold at retail. An additional $196 million came from subscription fees to online games, a number that is expected to grow to $1.4 billion over the next five years…for many people it’s more fun to outwit, outplay and outlast a fellow human being than a computer…The Sims, which was released in 2000, is already the best-selling PC game ever…Electronic Arts has racked up worldwide sales of nearly 20 million for The Sims and its expansion packs…45 percent of the players are women, and more than a third are over 24…online games are succeeding not just as an outlet for competition but as a forum for social interaction…the most widely played online action game is the first-person shooter Counter-Strike…Every night, without fail, there are 100,000 or more people online playing Counter-Strike."
That was back in 2002. I live in Los Angeles, California; I can tell you without a doubt that the average netcafe runs windows – not linux, beos, or BSD, but Windows. And do you know why? Games. The average netcafe in the united states does not just provide internet access, it provides the ability to play networked games for people who don’t have the latest and greatest hardware. The people who have the latest and greatest hardware end up playing games! There is just no way around this. The consumer base for video games is huge, gargantuan, staggering even; if we deny that the fate of our beloved Haiku is invested (at least partially) in the decisions of 12-30 year old males who buy games, then we are dooming ourselves to failure.
I asked my friends. One doesn’t play video games and says she’s about ready to switch operating systems, but all of her siblings play World of Warcraft. Most of my male friends play Battlefield Vietnam, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, Counterstrike: Source, Grand Theft Auto 3: San Andreas. Many of the people I’ve met have plays one or two games on their PC, whether it be The Sims or Black and White.
This might be an informal sort of study (my friends and associates might be different from the rest of yours, and I’ve not made much mention of all the people I know who don’t play games), but it does prove my point part way. I do not think it is safe to say: "games are not important to the survival of haiku".
I think I’ve solution for this.
Lets make game development easier and cheaper on haiku, and lets make that porting so impossible that for example. On windows you’d be totally unable to even port half of those features. Then lets boycot those who even tries to support windows for games! The direct attack is best when we mean it. If we would be able to pull it off to that level what it were when we lived C64 & amiga -time, then we’d be straight out winners.
I think I've solution for this.Lets make game development easier and cheaper on haiku, and lets make that porting so impossible that for example. On windows you’d be totally unable to even port half of those features. Then lets boycot those who even tries to support windows for games! The direct attack is best when we mean it. If we would be able to pull it off to that level what it were when we lived C64 & amiga -time, then we’d be straight out winners.
I didn’t see the sarchasm tag…
Cheery wrote:I think I've solution for this.Lets make game development easier and cheaper on haiku, and lets make that porting so impossible that for example. On windows you’d be totally unable to even port half of those features. Then lets boycot those who even tries to support windows for games! The direct attack is best when we mean it. If we would be able to pull it off to that level what it were when we lived C64 & amiga -time, then we’d be straight out winners.
I didn’t see the sarchasm tag…
Not exactly sure what he is trying to say but I think it is something to the effect of "let’s make Haiku only games." (ie games you can only play on Haiku and not worry about letting big game companies easily port their games to Haiku). And yes, I think he was trying to be serious about it! I don’t know if I like the idea of not letting big game companies easily port their money makers to Haiku but I do like the idea of building a couple of excellent games for Haiku that you can NOT play on winblows or OS X! 
umccullough wrote:Cheery wrote:I think I've solution for this.Lets make game development easier and cheaper on haiku, and lets make that porting so impossible that for example. On windows you’d be totally unable to even port half of those features. Then lets boycot those who even tries to support windows for games! The direct attack is best when we mean it. If we would be able to pull it off to that level what it were when we lived C64 & amiga -time, then we’d be straight out winners.
I didn’t see the sarchasm tag…
Not exactly sure what he is trying to say but I think it is something to the effect of "let’s make Haiku only games." (ie games you can only play on Haiku and not worry about letting big game companies easily port their games to Haiku). And yes, I think he was trying to be serious about it! I don’t know if I like the idea of not letting big game companies easily port their money makers to Haiku but I do like the idea of building a couple of excellent games for Haiku that you can NOT play on winblows or OS X!
Locking people from making cross-platform games for Haiku would very much put the final nail in the "Haiku == Games" coffin.
That would be a similar attitude as Microsoft’s DirectX… which doesn’t benefit the end-user, only Microsoft…
Besides, it would never happen - Haiku is open-source.