Can we please ban cb88 from the forum?

Maybe a part of what has motivated this post is that I don’t have that much time for Haiku anymore (or anything else for that matter). I don’t want to waste that time with idiots, I would rather like to enjoy the community, or participate in discussions that matter to me.

I’m sure I’ve annoyed people as well more than once. But I guess I don’t do that constantly, or even with the intent to be annoying. And I usually have at least some arguments that support my position. And IMO, cb88 is either really dumb, or has that intention. When there is someone that is constantly annoying, and superficially stupid, why should the others leave, and not that guy? It’s not nice to exclude someone, and maybe it’s too early for that last resort, but there is also no reason to tolerate the troll.

I’m always open for real discourse, but I have a hard time talking to people that aren’t interested in even listening, and only make accusations, and reiterate the same position over and over again without having any arguments for it in the first place. Life is too short for that kind of stuff; it’s just a waste of time and energy.

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What’s to tolerate? I also don’t have much time lately. I’ve been busy with PowerPC BeOS projects. When I do browse the forum, I read only the topics that interest me. If I see obnoxious posts, I just disregard them.

So this is definitely something that may take up your time, but I wouldn’t really pay it any mind, it’s not worth it.

In the end, what often happens is either regular folks just leave or stop talking altogether if non-respectful people are allowed to run rampant in a community. There is a difference between honest debate and needlessly niggling nuisance. While not all the time, the crossing of said line can be noticed when arguments begin repeating despite answers being given already.

Please do not let this place turn into something akin to the notorious Phoronix Forums or [insert toxic online place here], which are notable for not having moderators taking action towards open disrespect between people.

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What specific disrespectful things were said? I haven’t noticed, despite frequenting this forum. It’s really hard to have a debate with someone if you just don’t give it any thought.

Someone also may have opinions on things, I have opinions on things. If people kept making posts asking to drop 32 bit support, or drop support for BeOS apps in 32-bit, I’d probably continually discuss the same issues too.

Complaining means that he is not ignorant and consider Haiku important to spend his time. Opposite of love is not hate, but ignorance. Negative opinions can be more important than telling how much you like Haiku because it can lead to some action and progress.

If Haiku community is a group of perfect people that love each other and never tell something negative or rude then please ban be too.

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Going through the mans profile and it seems he really likes Haiku. 2008? I was in diapers back then. My take on this discussion is let him stay. It isn’t like he is harming the forum intentionally on the basis of his activity. His way of speaking just isn’t the most socialable.

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Sorry, but you’re completely missing the point. It’s not about only saying nice things; that’s also not how love works, I guess you know that.

Constructive criticism can bring a project forward, and I’m always glad if someone takes the time to actually come forward with new and better ideas. Unfounded, and ignorant rants certainly don’t help at all. He might care about Haiku, if that’s what drives him, but that doesn’t make him a better person to deal with. It’s all about an open discourse, but that doesn’t seem to be possible with him at all.

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Not the way of speaking, but what is spoken. Also, the appearance of his nickname in a thread indicates that that is a trash post, contributing nothing and making well-intentioned people waste time trying to explain to him things.

I’m not sure if such public discussion on a ban topic can be constructive. As you can see, there won’t be a consensus here, and if cb88 joins the discussion he most probably just gets defensive. (But I might be wrong on the latter, so let’s see how it goes.)

I’ll just quote one of cb88’s posts, which I’ve just seen while looking at the recently discussed moderation topic:

So yes, flagging does matter, and flagging cb88’s posts more often would have sent him a clear signal that community is not happy with his discourse and he needs to improve it.

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In context, I was saying, That how much was or wasn’t flagged is irrelvant to the question if you want to ban someone.

In any case, the problem in that case would be feedback on behaviour, which this topic is much more than any flags would be.

I see. Personally I would prefer using such an indirect feedback over a public name and shame post. But that’s just me.

While one possible outcome of this thread might actually have been banning cb88, that’s not its primary target. The primary target is to improve the situation. I think this thread is a good example on how to deal with a controversial topic. Most people actually tried to be constructive, and raised a number of good points (for both sides of the argument). I’m not sure if there is more to say about this, but I hope that everyone takes away something from it.

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Hello,

Well I think a lot of things have been said in this topic already :slight_smile:

But I guess I should reply, as I was personally mentioned as taking the time to reply to cb88 and a few others.

Here are the main reasons I noticed against the ban in this topic, that I want to comment on:

  • What would it achieve?
  • He didn’t break any rules, so a ban isn’t appropriate
  • People can ignore him, either just don’t read his post, or somehow set up the forum to not show his posts

Well, first of all, being a forum moderator, I can’t ignore anyone. Otherwise, they could just wait until they are ignored by most people, and then post things that no one but newcomers would see. So, I do read everything, if only because of my role as a moderator, of keeping this place nice and seeing if action needs to be taken.

More generally, I imagine a forum where people just ignore each other would not work at all. Someone will say something utterly wrong, none of the people who could correct them will reply because they will have ignored the message, and so, the wrong thing will remain. Maybe someone will reply something else, and the discussion will be split ionto two threqds from two groups of people who can’t see each other. If we don’t want to talk to each other, what is even the point of having a forum?

Now about the rules: as was already mentioned, some people (intentionaly or not) will always be at the limits of what’s allowed by the rules. When you do that in a game (wether it’s a boardgame, or sports, or whatever), it can sometimes be fun and interesting (and lead to updates and clarifications of the rules), it is, in a way, a form of ‘hacking’, and who doesn’t like that? But in an online community, it doesn’t work this way. One person or a small group starts pushing the limits of the rules. What was once fringe becomes normal and acceptable. After a while, the limit gets pushed further and further, and then the rules completely stop being enforced, or they are changed because otherwise you’d have to ban 90% of people in the forum.

In any case, I think “this person is annoying, but technically they didn’t break any rule so we have to keep them” is not a great way of working. It is focusing on the rules, rather than focusing on what the rules are trying to achieve: keeping this a nice place to talk about Haiku and grow the project. So, let’s not focus on the rules, but ask instead the question: does this person contribution make the forum a better place?

And, if the current rules don’t allow to achieve that, they can be changed as well.

And finally this brings us to the first question, “what would this achieve”?

The goal here is to keep the community nice and welcoming, both for users (who should get useful replies to their questions, as well as a nice place to hang out) and developers of Haiku and apps (who should be able to use this forum for advanced technical discussions). I think in both cases, there are currently problems with that (and not just only because of one forum user).

On the technical discussion side, in my discussions with cb88, I am trying to keep things based on technical arguments, not opinions, feelings and the like. But this is a bit the “level 0” of technical discussions. In the current situation it is important to do it, keep the discussion based on facts and reality. I wish this could be taken for granted, but if I don’t take this time, who will do it? And, of course, my energy is spent there and not in more interesting discussions. Just stating the facts and not making any progress.

Likewise for the community as a whole: when I send someone to the forum for help, I am a bit worried. Will they get an useful reply, or will they get a rant from one user that isn’t helpful at all? Sure, if you’ve been on the forum for a while, you know the people around and you can ignore them or at least know that they’re just that way. But if you’re a newcomer, it can give a bad first impression of the community here, and cause people to not stay. So, that’s why asking other people like me to “just ignore useless replies from cb88” is not acceptable.

To conclude, is a ban necessary? I don’t know. Let’s wait and see what cb88 wants to reply here. Personally, I think the community would be better off, I would spend less time in “level 0” discussions and could use my time for something else. Maybe this topic will be enough for cb88 to reflect on their behavior and things will change for the best. Let’s see what they have to say first.

We could do these discussions with just the moderators, but then we will get complaints of censorship and lack of transparency. I think it’s nice to have the discussion out in the open and with precise case and not vague accusations of “some users, you know who you are”. This is how these things have been handled historically in Haiku (the few times we had to ban people from the community). It is not an enjoyable thing to do for anyone, but it has to be done and ultimately the community is more welcoming and more interesting to participate in, and then one banned person is replaced by 10 or more other people who find this a nice place and don’t make me spend my days on pointless arguments :slight_smile:

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Really, people are very nice here. I have never seen so much discussion to ban a user who does not confirm to usual accepted behaviour
On the archlinux forums, you can get banned very easily. I see some of the members here, who were / are on archlinux forums. Maybe they will concur with me.
Just a small unfavourable (to archlinux developers / moderators/users) comment wrt systemd, and w…oosh, you are banned from the forums.
I just suggested a new name to archlinux…and I was banned…no warnings issued…just out.
Feels good to be here…with nice people
Thanks!

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My reason is different. I think that old BeOS and passionate Haiku users are very important to community. Old BeOS users that still remember BeOS and use Haiku have a price as gold. On the other side, very nice forum users that do not use or plan to contribute to Haiku are nothing more that source of offtopic, even is it is very satisfying to talk with them.

People that deal with technical things such as OS and programming often have not that good social skills and can be felt rude and hard to talk with by others.

If we talk about rules, this Axeld phrase can be considered rude and personal attack to cb88. As I remember, I never called any forum user “dumb”, even hypothetically. So lets ban Axeld?

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The amount of answers and time spend on this matter posted only yesterday is wasted time!

All that time is lost for doing more important things on HAIKU.

Keep your messages short!

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IMO means „In my opinion“. It is not a personal attack, but an opinion.

Why do you think that somebody beeing dumb would be an insult?

Anyhow, the argument about technical discussions does not apply, loudly complaining about something, refusing to engage in arguments and ignoring the technical reality is the opposite of a good technical discussion. It does not matter a single bit if somebody personally likes/used BeOS or not.

If you want BeOS it is available right now, Haiku is not BeOS and never will be.

Your behaviour has been worse on this forum; even if axeld would have directly insulted cb88 here. Should we by that logic ban you?

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Well, my comment surely was a bit over the top, as it obviously brought heat into an otherwise useful discussion. That was not my intention, and as such, I could have worded that better.

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Well, it is better to dicuss this now to avoid wasting time in the future. But for me I do have some time i spend on these forums i don’t use for developing Haiku. Like writing on a phone on a tram. ; )

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Having used BeOS and Haiku for a long time does not necessarily mean people are making useful contributions (technical or otherwise). The experience of long time users is of course valuable, but only if they bring it in a constructive way. Having been around for 15 years now, I think I can try to do that in some cases, by providing context on why things are the way they are (as much as I remember, and my memory isn’t perfect).

If you find that communities are this way, maybe you did something wrong, and people who have good social skills felt the problem and ran away? I don’t think the good technical skills automatically go with bad (or less good) social ones. But if you build an environment that puts technical skills over social ones, the people with technical skills may stay, and the ones with social skills will leave, because they see problems with the way the community is run. And without social skills, the project won’t have any success.

Anyway, back to the case of cb88 in particular. To take a precise exemple, the recent discussion about ICU supposedly being bloated. This discussions was:

  • offtopic in the topic it was started in,
  • not backed by any actual facts or even an understanding of what ICU actually is and how it is used,
  • continued on despite people trying to explain these things.

I do not see what the value was to me in that discussion. Not only, the filesize of ICU is something that was already discussed several times, but also, there was nothing new here besides a claim that “ICU is bloated”. This is not helpful to solve any specific problem.

So, what is the contribution of cb88 to the community? In this particular case, I think not much. And the time spent in that discussion is neither fun nor productive. So, wether you care about social skills (and, in a way, I think you want the “fun” part), or you care about technical skills (and you want the “productive” part), I’m not sure what you get from it. So, am I missing something? Is it just an argument about freedom of speech, or is there actual value in these discussions? Personally, I prefer having less freedom of speech in this forum (I have my personal blog or social media account for that), and more valuable and constructive discussions about Haiku.

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