Cite an instance where I have been involved in personal attacks I’ll wait.
As far as criticism of code without evidence… ABSOLUTELY I have done that especially in instances where the problems affect me directly or where the code in question is WIDELY disliked for well known reasons as is the case with ICU.
If you raise the bar of criticism so high… soon you’ll have no criticism at all. Do you think Haiku will get any better without criticism or at a bare minimum questioning why things are as they are?
Please, Please provide actual feedback on the project that is constructive. All you do is call out stuff, provide 0 evidence, leave. And then come back to criticise something else, provide no evidence and then leave again.
This is blatantly wrong, we have a public forum here, a public bugtracker, a public code review tool. And nothing is forced on anyone, whoever wants to contribute can contribute, it is developed completely in the open.
You are free to provide feedback on any of these public mediums, but your recent actions have been nothing constructive whatsoever.
Just take your most recent response in the Icu forum, not only is it factually wrong (only one ICU alternative was provided for something Haiku does not actually use ICU for) but it adds nothing to the discussion. I’ve provided you feedback why your conduct is inapropriate and you just go “no u provide alternatives!!”. Funky. I did not provide any ICU alternative since I am not well versed in the area of ICU alternatives, and I don’t feel the need to talk out of my ass about these topics.
You on the other hand brought it up in the first place, provided no evidence to support any of your claims (Icu is bloated, alternatives exist etc) and left.
Take this thread as a warning from the community. You have to clean up your act.
If you continue to engage in this unproductive discourse you are a net negative as you are wasting everybody’s time who is dumb enough to read your rants.
This thread is not a personal grudge from axeld against you, he simply brought out into the open what was shared by many people, he did not insult you, and neither is this damaging the community.
Next time please take the time to figure out what for example ICU is used for, whether it is appropriate, are there alternatives etc. Or alternatively if you don’t know about a topic don’t start unproductive discussions about them.
So what you are saying is you think new developers are so low skilled and you think so little of them that they cannot even perform basic critical thinking skills and a simple critique of ICU will throw them into chaos? That’s rough.
At worst case, a simple, yeah… ICU kinda sucks but its what we have right now, so lets not get stuck on that issue right now… would be appropriate.
Exactly. Nothing from this forum or the public bug tracker or anywhere a non developer does anything is forced on anyone.
However many decisions by developers are forced on the rest of us. That’s just how it is. I’m mostly ok with that they put the effort in after all, I’d like some things to have been discussed more in the past or even fixed to be better now, but there is a complete lack of openness to those issues. And they are usually replied to with sunk cost fallacies.
Define actual feedback. Your post is so vague I cannot possibly grok. See? You yourself are guilty of exactly what you claim irritates you about my posts.
On the other hand I’m usually quite exacting about WHAT irritates me, and I sometimes provide my opinion on how it could be better, but nobody is bound to that… obviously.
Next time please take the time to figure out what for example ICU is used for, whether it is appropriate, are there alternatives etc. Or alternatively if you don’t know about a topic don’t start unproductive discussions about them.
Genuinly curious, do you really not understand what is seen as problematic here?
If after this entire thread it is still unclear to you what is seen as wrong with your behaviour I am quite baffled.
I’ve also clearly states what is irritating about your conduct, and have provided examples of what you could have done instead.
But really it all boils to this: If you want to have a discussion you need a thesis, an antiheses to form a synthesis. With your recent discussions this never happened, you just stuck to your original standpoint and refused to provde any arguments or evidence. Pulkomandy for example did provide arguments and evidence, you did not engage with this. A synthesis can never be formed, the project does not move forward and the only thing that happened is time wasted.
If you had provided for example alternative libraries to ICU in the space haiku uses it it could have been investigated, hell maybe it would have been better and somebody integrated it (would save us some hassle with haikuports icu versions). But since there were no alternatives provided and we stuck with the “It’s surely bloated” part nothing came from it.
Is it? Or is it just telling someone to disconnect and cool off. As I already mentioned I took my own advice and did just that myself. Defaulting to assuming someone is insulting you is just as bad as intentionally insulting someone to the health of the community.
That is the main problem with your communication, you claim “I’ve never done this!” But to an outsider you clearly did. Own up to your mistakes, if you were not aware of this meaning, well that is a mistake and can be forgiven. But your personal interpretation of the phrase does not excuse the behaviour.
Would you rather I said… get off the internet and go outside you are too hot headed right now? Because … that would have been just fine and not an insult at all. And that is exactly how I used it.
Also when used as an actual insult is will be accompanied by all sorts of explicitness I’m sure… and no such thing came from me. As always context is important.
Yes, context is important. And the phrase you used before makes this really hard to see it as anything other than an insult.
I don’t think KapiX was hotheaded in that instance, I was more baffled that you did not adress his comments at all. You did not really engage. Only “shoot back” based on a perceived attack.
Besides, you posted this 5 days after KapiX did. I don’t think any advice of “you are too much on the computer” would hold up after that time.
Anyway I’ve made my point previously on those issues. And I was apparently dead wrong about STL usage in ICU… odd that nobody tried to bring that up until BANNING me is apparently the topic of the day. I’ve had about enough of this nonsense for today and do not intend to continue this further. See you all hopefully in a more positive light in other threads in the future.
It’s not up to us to disprove your assertions. It is well known etiquette in discussion and debate circles that the one making the assertions is the one that needs to bring proof to the table.
No need to wait, I’m not going to dig through the forum for stuff like that. But recently your exchange with Kapix comes to my mind. Not exactly pleasant or constructive.
Anyway, please note that I’m not in favour of you being banned (not that I have any influence on that) . These discussions are so unnecessary, I really hope we find a way to avoid them in the future. It’s not about criticism, criticism is absolutely necessary, even if it is harsh sometimes. But it`s got to be constructive and detailed. As an example, if you strongly feel that ICU is bloated (whatever that means exactly) and you want to convince the developers you need to provide exact details, or even better provide patches as proof of concept that library XY is better for the job. Otherwise it’s just an opinion that is repeated, frustration on all sides piles up and the result is threads like this.
Let’s all assume that we have good intentions and want to bring the project forward. It’s not going to be ideal at all times but maybe we can all do better than it is now.
As far as I am aware I have not even come close to breaking any forum rules. Perhaps I have ruffled feathers … People need to chill though. People can be wrong… Any of us and that is a bad reason to get irritated at anyone.
