I think more distros are a good thing. Not more for the Desktop, but different distros for different needs. Like one for smartphones (I think it would be a great smartphone os), one with an interface adapted for netbooks and tablets, one for game consoles, one for digital media receivers (like Google TV and Apple TV), one for digital video recorders, one for big-screen tv’s, one for set-top boxes etc.
My dream phone would be a Droid X running a mobile version of Haiku.
Imagine the apps that could be made for a mobile Haiku considering it’s multitasking and multimedia capabilities.
Exactly. The user should be able to decide at install time how fat his system will be, and be able to add/remove parts at any time later.
Maybe even provide a download service where you can cherry-pick which packages should be included on your install media, and the anyboot image is assembled on the fly?
By making Haiku flexible in this regard, and also treating bundled and 3rd party software very similarly, the need for “distros” and “editions” will be almost non-existent.
[quote=agreimann]sparklewind, once again, I agree with you on this. 
I was using the term ‘distro’ so that any Linux programmers or users could catch my meaning. But, yes, I was referring more to a ‘fork’ of Haiku.
However… I still think chopping any software up into editions may not be the smartest idea, unless Haiku in the future just stuck with Desktop, Server, Mobile, to keep things simple–if nothing else, for users. Or, 32 and 64 bit? The names here, for instance, would be self-explanatory. And, I know OS X has Server and the retail version–two editions, and I agree with the idea there–much simpler/better than the half a dozen Windows® editions. But, isn’t Haiku already at where it’s powerpc, i386, mips, and arm? Maybe I’m wrong on this.
I don’t know… what do you think?[/quote]
The many official editions might indeed become a concern. Right now we have 4 editions for only one kind of system on one platform (x86 32-bit); gcc2, gcc2hybrid, gcc4, hcc4hybrid. This will most likely get very frustrating once we throw 64-bit, the Clang compiler and different hardware platforms into the mix. Personally, I believe we should settle on one compiler and add optional compatibility libraries, and then make 32/64-bit hybrid builds. This would leave us with one build for each hardware platform (Maybe two, Desktop and Mobile, for ARM), which shouldn’t be too confusing for users. I can’t say how the developers will handle this though, as there seems to be a lot of disagreement about this issue.
When I said I find it Ok with alternative editions, I didn’t mean that we should officially make editions with extra apps and stuff, but rather that if a somewhat anonymous person decides to make something without bringing too much attention, then it wouldn’t affect us who just download the official builds. You’d have to seek the unofficial editions out if you’re interested in them, and if you’re not then they’re easy to ignore. 
[quote=sparklewind]
The many official editions might indeed become a concern. Right now we have 4 editions for only one kind of system on one platform (x86 32-bit); gcc2, gcc2hybrid, gcc4, hcc4hybrid.[/quote]
The nightly images are purely for development related purposes and are not official releases of Haiku (eg, R1/Alpha 1 and R1/Alpha 2 are released only as a gcc2 hybrid as that is the official type).Granted the nightly images still bear the HAIKU development logo – perhaps that should be changed so that only gcc2hybrids contain it.
As for the ‘editions’ or ‘distributions’, there’s still some ambiguity on which graphics can and should be used for them. According to the current Haiku Distribution Guidelines, the HAIKU logo (and other trademarks) cannot be used. Instead a HAIKU Compatible Logo may be possible to use.
Basically, before creating any ‘editions’, ‘distributions’, ‘remixes’, …, it’d be best to discuss it on at least the General Mailing List.
Wow, I didn’t even think about this! I guess I am just too used to using the nightly builds. Well then it’s not quite as complicated as I thought.
I’m optimistic about the Haiku. And, I think there’s a lot of good ideas here, too.
So far the best ideas have been to not make the same mistakes as Linux (obviously) :), and to allow plug-and-playable apps in the system. I’m thinking to work with the gcc2 compiler (maybe we’ll have an MIT C compiler someday.)
[quote=agreimann]I’m optimistic about the Haiku. And, I think there’s a lot of good ideas here, too.
So far the best ideas have been to not make the same mistakes as Linux (obviously) :), and to allow plug-and-playable apps in the system. I’m thinking to work with the gcc2 compiler (maybe we’ll have an MIT C compiler someday.) ;)[/quote]
I understand the feeling, I’m optimistic about it too. I just saw some of the work that has gone into MediaPlayer recently and it’s looking good. Once we reach the final release, there probably won’t be any basic functionality that isn’t covered by the applications that are included with the OS! 
Not even Windows beats that. Most of the applications included with Windows are annoying and quickly get replaced.
Yeah, GCC2 is the best way to ensure binary compatibility for probably several years to come.
Clang uses a license similar to the MIT license: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinois/NCSA_Open_Source_License
Clang looks really interesting and hopefully it can replace GCC in the future.
Thanks for the link–Clang looks interesting.
As for the post, for everyone who has kindly taken time to reply, thank you. I’ve learned a lot from reading, and yes, for those wondering, I definitely admit I’ve commented a little too much.
Unfortunately, Linux can’t be thought of as an single operating system, but more like a collection of operating systems. The fragmentation, the perpetually reinvention of the wheel, the poor programming and design decision, the poor integration, the poor implementation (eg. some gnome’s features and components are written in python, for fu.ck’s sake!) have plagued Linux and will continue to plague it until the end of time.
That’s because there’s no central authority, there’s no team to coordinate and synchronize the different components of an OS. Unlike BSD’s, Haiku, Reactos. SkyOS, Syllable, Qnx, Windows, Os X, QNX, you name it. More than that, Linux ecosystem isn’t only a collection of software written with Linux in mind. Eg. Apache wasn’t written specifically for Linux, MySQL, gcc, X etc.
Linux as a kernel is a wonderful piece of software. In fact, performance-wise has beaten all other known operating systems in benchmarks.
If “Linux” was led by a team instead of being an anarchy, if people worked on implementing new and better functionalities instead of reinventing the wheel, if “Linux” could have been an operating system instead of an “ecosystem”, I think Linux would have been the world’s most advanced operating system today. Server wise and desktop wise.
Unfortunately, most free operating systems, even if led by a team, have chosen “the linux way”: instead of developing software tightly integrated with the OS, they chose to port software. I don’t see a big difference between linux distros and freebsd, netbsd, open bsd. Beside the kernel and a few packages, all use the same software: gnu gcc, gnu binutils, X, Gnome, KDE, etc.
Maybe, this is the UNIX way…
The only UNIX variant that did a better job is Os X. But Os X isn’t free. And although it did a better job at software integration, performance wise is a mess…
The problem with Linux is with so many distributions, you don’t know what to go for. I don’t really understand Linux frankly. With one specific version of Haiku, you know exactly what to expect. I’m sure it would even be possible to make a version of Haiku for a different class of PC hardware … a PDA for example. But until then, Haiku is the only open source operating system that has more potential in actually overtaking Linux in market share, it’s even very well publicised at the moment (I first discovered Haiku after seeing a multimedia OS called BeOS in a Mac OS History video, surfed it on the internet, then came across Haiku).
Quote: “The problem with Linux is with so many distributions, you don’t know what to go for. I don’t really understand Linux frankly.”
@Papsie: Studying computer history would help out–here’s a brief overview of Linux for you. Understanding operating systems is understanding the fundamentals that run the operating system–such as the kernel that the OS is built on, and the source code behind it–this is why open source software is better. It can be studied by the computer programmer, or even the end user, who can then study it to better understand computing, coupled with the study of computer science. Closed source hides the code, so only company employees know how it ticks.
Firstly, the world, regardless of the distribution name, generally calls ‘distros’ “Linux”, and around this there is some controversy, because of two naming differences. Most will state that Linux is purely the kernel which allows different operating systems to emerge from building around the kernel. Collectively, it is called “Linux” or “gnu/linux” by different open source fans. This naming convention differentiation came from the building of linux and hurd–at the time, the hurd kernel was not mature enough to manage the OS, though the gnu community wished for all gnu software; as a result, the kernel for the OS became linux and the software was bundled out of gnu products. Some argue it is just “linux”, whilst the gnu community argues “gnu/linux.”
The software, however, I’ll refer to as Linux–but you need to remember that Ubuntu, Fedora, and even Palm’s webOS, Google’s Chrome, and Android are all “Linux” but are all different operating systems by definition–some will use different package managers, computer languages, and ports to platforms. Obviously, anyone can choose and download a Linux distro–but because this is a brief overview, here’s how it’s built, and why I don’t like Linux (I’ll still use Linux a little, though.)
Firstly, you start with “Linux” itself by grabbing and compiling the Linux kernel in an active operating environment. You will then need to compile and add the coreutils, write in options and driver support into the kernel, add a package manager, and you will also need to choose what shell you wish to operate from (e.g. bash) and from here, if everything is successful, you can throw the small OS together and make the squashfs and image it into an .iso. Secondly, write it to CD or a USB drive and fire it up. Hopefully, you can at least connect to Ethernet, because you’ve only begun! You don’t even have a GUI (graphical user interface) yet–unless you are a real geek, and honestly like the shell. To start, you’ll need to use your new package manager and download the X Window System, along with fonts, and if you don’t like the default, a cursor set. Of course there’s a lot of options. Once that’s done, what window manager do you want? Of course there’s a lot of options–more than a dozen. What desktop environment do you want? Of course there’s a lot of options. Then, you’ll need to download apps. Of course there’s a lot of options–up to 32,000.
Summing it up without going further writing what has already become a gigantic essay :D, Linux is not a complete operating system, like how arrogant Linux coders and fans look at Linux. And because of the vast array of choices at every corner, it has almost made Linux unusable for the average end user, who can’t even figure out which distribution out of at least hundreds that have been developed to use! I would honestly dare the Linux fan to launch an application (written out of 1 or 2 of more than a dozen languages!) from the shell, and see if it opens cleanly–most will not–this is not a feature of good software.
However, for the entry-level user, most download Ubuntu or LinuxMint. Does this clarify your questions about Linux?
Haiku is a great operating system–I just can only hope that Haiku gears up for the end user, because it honestly needs to in order to be a great operating system people will want to use. Hope this was not too long.
What I would like to be done with Haiku in the future, is for all the necessary drivers for all the applications to be included in the OS, so that the end user doesn’t have to do anything more then extract the zip, dc on the file, opens instantly, job done. I can’t even get mplayer (with all the gcc4 plugins) to work, among the games. The trash is an absolute nightmare to operate especially on a USB thumb drive.
@Paspie: Could you expand on what you’re saying here? It would help.
Right, when I unpack the gcc4 libraries to /boot/ it ends up sticking the files in a folder within the directory, and I’m not sure where. The app itself is just fine, with the app ready to use.
Here’s what I meant when I said “Could you expand on what you’re saying here? It would help.” I was mentioning for all the details you had posted if you could explain:
a) “What [you] would like to be done with Haiku in the future, is for all the necessary drivers for all the applications to be included in the OS, so that the end user doesn’t have to do anything more then extract the zip, dc on the file, opens instantly, job done.”
b) Why “[you] can’t even get mplayer (with all the gcc4 plugins) to work, among the games.”
c) Why “the trash is an absolute nightmare to operate especially on a USB thumb drive.”
I’m not quite sure why you’re sticking the Media Player application in the /boot directory, instead of in apps. I’m only understanding part of your response to your Media Player issue. This is what I’m getting so far–thanks.
@Paspie: Yes–I had seen the ‘trash’ thread you started and that your HDD is in trouble here.
As far as making a fork, I’m looking through the source, but I’m still thinking whether it should be done…
To start this post off, I’m going to note that at some point, desktop Market share for Linux is going to collapse under too many distros (it won’t die off completely thanks to the licence).
Tried to install FFplay today, another Libpak application, but as soon as it started extraction I entered kernel debugging land. Any way to get round this and get it working?
Paspie,
Is this the computer with the hard disk that is failing–more specifically, are you trying to install with the failed HDD? If so, the HDD is what is giving you trouble here, as far as you entering kernel debugging land. If not, if you are unzipping the file in alpha 2, the extraction process within Haiku appears to malfunction when unzipping certain files–and it is likely that your copy of the file is not working correctly with this service.
I’d love to further help you out here–however, may I kindly ask if you could please post a new thread? It’d be appreciated, as this thread has gotten quite long.
How could you not ‘allow them’? Anyone can take the code and make a distro, anyone can take the code and make a proprietary version of Haiku aswell (although they must name it differently). The Haiku devs can not control the creation of distributions be them open or proprietary, however people can choose to use them or not.[/quote]
Just to drive this point home … practically anything can be done with the source code of Haiku, as it is MIT. However, the Haiku name and HAIKU logo are trademarks, which are seperate from the source code and do not share the same liberal usage.
As a working example, a few years ago Debian needed to rebrand their distribution of the Mozilla source code as ‘Iceweasel’, instead of the trademarked ‘Firefox’ : Debian–Mozilla trademark dispute - Wikipedia